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tonyv

12.05.08 -- Rim

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tonyv

The grooves in the gray matter had sunk in;
troubling thoughts adhered to the bone rim
of a cage, hidden beneath delicate skin
from uncurious eyes. Oft, in the dim
blush of the winter gloaming came a blast:
a wraith of her, locked in a kiss with him;
but now, the daystar is returning fast
to subjugate -- reveal and burn away --
vexatious apparitions of the past.
Time to defy the high and help allay
the self-inflicted torment -- to maroon
addictions which beget afflictions -- today,
while spring dissolves the saffron afternoon
into the milk of the Full Flower Moon.

 

Ever since Tinker posted Frost's "Acquainted with the Night," I have wanted to write a terza rima sonnet. This form was very hard for me to employ, and being in a terrible dry spell with nothing much of any substance to say made it even more difficult.

When Goldenlangur started posting the prose and poetry prompts, the word "Rim" caught my attention, and I was "prompted" icon_lol.gif to incorporate it into a poem. I'll post this attempt in Member Poetry also.

 

Tony


Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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goldenlangur

Hi Tony,

 

 

So sorry that his has been around for so long without a comment. icon_redface.gif I know precious little about the terza rima sonnet form but thoroughly enjoyed this poem when you posted it in the other forum. What comes across wonderfully for me is your superb enjambment of the lines and this gives it a great flow and cadence.

 

 

Some wonderfully unforgettable images:

 

spring dissolves the saffron afternoon

into the milk of the Full Flower Moon.

Another great detail is:

addictions which beget afflictions -

You often talk about the dry period in your writing but when you do write you come up with gems like this poem.

 

 

 

 

I hope your Muse graces you with more of the same icon_smile.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

goldenlangur


goldenlangur

 

 

Even a single enemy is too many and a thousand friends too few - Bhutanese saying.

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tonyv

Ah, Golden! I did receive your reply on this in Member poetry -- thank you again for that. I merely posted the poem here also because it was inspired by one of your prompts. icon_biggrin.png Thanks also for your kind comments here especially about the enjambment.

 

Tony


Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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Tinker

Well this goes to show how buried I have been in the reference section, only occasionally coming up for air. I just spotted this.... but I am on it now.... I really like it. When I read it aloud it flows beautifully and it has a wonderfully romantic tone, nice.

 

I love the end... it sounds Asian.

 

while spring dissolves the saffron afternoon

into the milk of the Full Flower Moon.

 

I am sure I called you master of meter only a few hours ago. Hmmm, when I scan this piece it doesn't quite fit the iambic pentameter element of the Terza Rima Sonnet. So who cares about the meter as long as it sounds good. which it does. And you have certainly moved on from this piece by now and probably don't want to go back, but . . . :huh:

 

I have been fiddling with this and I think it best left alone. :-8)

 

~~Tink


~~ © ~~ Poems by Judi Van Gorder ~~

For permission to use this work you can write to Tinker1111@icloud.com

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tonyv
... when I scan this piece it doesn't quite fit the iambic pentameter element of the Terza Rima Sonnet. So who cares about the meter as long as it sounds good. which it does ...

Thanks for checking in with this one, Tinker, and for your kind reply. But I must insist ... It is iambic pentameter. And if it does, in fact, sound good, that's why. Let me know where you thought it deviated, and I'll scan the line(s).

 

Tony


Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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rumisong
... I must insist ... It is iambic pentameter. And if it does, in fact, sound good, that's why. Let me know where you thought it deviated, and I'll scan the line(s)

 

 

yeah, see-- me too-- you guys have been confusing me for some time now with what you all have been calling iambic--

 

Im using wikipedia here, to back up my understanding/memory of the term:

 

The word "iambic" describes the type of foot that is used (in English, an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable). The word "pentameter" indicates that a line has five of these "feet".

 

from my understanding, its supposed to always be stressed/unstressed - one right after the other-- within that very line -

 

so T, these lines here follow this rule just fine, to my ear:

 

but now, the daystar is returning fast

to subjugate -- reveal and burn away --

vexatious apparitions of the past.

 

the self-inflicted torment -- to maroon

 

while spring dissolves the saffron afternoon

 

but these lines mess me up in my understanding:

The grooves in the gray matter had sunk in;

troubling thoughts adhered to the bone rim

of a cage, hid den ben eath del ic ate skin

from un curious eyes. Oft, in the dim

blush of the winter gloaming came a blast:

 

Time to de fy the high and help allay

 

addictions which beget afflic tions -- to day,

 

into the milk of the Full Flower Moon.

 

Hoping Ive bolded and colored correctly here, the bold is the stressed after the unstressed, which seems perfectly ok to me--

 

but the red bits are two unstressed together (to my ear, anyway) and thus cannot qualify in the strictest sense as iambic...

 

cant wait for Tink to school me in this though-- I really want to get this cleared up once and for all

 

(unless of course, I choose to disagree with Tink like I once did with my High School english teacher back in '76 :))

Edited by rumisong

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Tinker

Ok This is why you are the master and I think writing metric poetry is so hard. Teach me where I am wrong or how to be right. Looks like Rumi and I were posting at the same time and are on the same wave length....

 

And I did start with "it sounds good". So I do get it sort of, but visually if I read it stress and unstress according to the word order, to me it doesn't fit the iambic pattern. da DUM/ da DUM/ da DUM/ da DUM/ da DUM.

 

The grooves in the gray matter had sunk in. 10 syllables / 5 feet? / iambic da DUM?

 

da DUM/ da da DUM/ DUMda/ da daDUM 10 syllables / 4 feet / iamb/ anapest/ trochee/ anapest

 

or maybe

 

da DUM/ da da DUM/da da / da DUM da This is very strange. There are variations of stressed syllables which could be read either way.

 

Ok take me to school. Old dogs can learn new tricks. ;)

 

~~Tink


~~ © ~~ Poems by Judi Van Gorder ~~

For permission to use this work you can write to Tinker1111@icloud.com

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tonyv

Thank you, both Tinker and Rumisong, for your questions and interest. I'll discuss Rumisong's specific points below.

 

It's a common misconception that an iambic pentameter should contain five iambs. An iambic pentameter should contain five metrical feet, at least three of which should be iambs. (Each iamb is an unstressed syllable, followed by a stressed syllable, as you've already explained.) Other types of feet are acceptable substitutions anywhere within the iambic pentameter line, except in the last foot, in which the last syllable should be stressed. A poem that does not contain any three-syllable substituted feet is considered strict iambic, and a poem that contains some three-syllable substitutions is considered loose iambic. [The three syllable feet I'm referring to are anapests (unstressed-unstressed-stressed), which are very common, and dactyls (stressed-unstressed-unstressed), which are less common.]

 

Let's look at the lines you've pointed out. Your reading of the stressed and unstressed syllables is entirely correct. I'll scan each line individually and explain why they are iambic pentameters.

 

/ the GROOVES / in the / GRAY MAT / ter had / SUNK IN /

/ iamb / {pyrrhic / spondee} / {pyrrhic / spondee} /

 

A metrical foot consisting of two unstressed syllables is called a pyrrhic, and a metrical foot consisting of two stressed syllables is called a spondee. When a pyrrhic is followed by a spondee, the two feet taken together (pyrrhic+spondee) are considered to be a double iamb, and they are counted as two iambs. Therefore, in the line above, there is an iamb followed by two double iambs for a total of five "iambs."

 

The next line scans as follows:

 

/ TROUBl / ing THOUGHTS / adHERED / to the / BONE RIM /

/ trochee / iamb / iamb / {pyrrhic / spondee } /

 

A trochee (a foot with a stressed syllable followed by an unstressed syllable, essentially the "opposite" of an iamb), an acceptable substitution in iambic pentameter, is followed by two iambs, then the double iamb. Therefore, the line is considered to have one trochee, followed by four iambs. Again, the pyrrhic+spondee "double iamb" is counted as two iambs. (I'm pronouncing "trouble" in the first foot as two syllables to end up with the initial trochee.)

 

The next line contains two double iambs followed by an anapest:

 

/ {of a / CAGE HID} / {den be / NEATH DEL} / ic ate SKIN /

/ {pyrrhic / spondee} / {pyrrhic / spondee} / anapest /

 

I believe it's one of two places in the poem where I use a three-syllable foot (the anapest). Whether or not that makes the poem strict or loose iambic is up for debate. I would consider the poem 99% strict iambic, or "mostly strict" lol.

 

The next line contains three iambs and two trochees:

 

/ from UN / CURri / ous EYES / OFT in / the dim /

/ iamb / trochee / iamb / trochee / iamb /

 

Again, trochees are acceptable substitutions, and the line contains three iambs. Therefore, it conforms and is considered an iambic pentameter.

 

The next line contains a trochee followed by four iambs --

 

/ BLUSH of / the WIN / ter GLOAM / ing CAME / a BLAST /

/ trochee / iamb / iamb / iamb / iamb /

 

-- therefore, it's an iambic pentameter.

 

The next three lines all conform. They each contain at least three iambs plus acceptable substitutions:

 

/ TIME to / deFY / the HIGH / and HELP / alLAY /

/trochee / iamb / iamb / iamb / iamb /

 

/ adDIC / tions WHICH / beGET / afFLIC / tions toDAY /

/iamb / iamb / iamb / iamb / anapest /

 

/INto / the MILK / of the / FULL FLOW / er MOON /

/ trochee / iamb / {pyrrhic / spondee} / iamb /

 

In the case of the second one, we see the anapest again, for the second time in the poem, calling into question whether the poem is strict or loose, but in any case it is iambic pentameter. And in the case of the last one we again see the pyrrhic+spondee "double iamb," which counts as two iambs.

 

Thank you both again. Please ask if you have any more questions. (I'll try to answer correctly.) I think it's the initial misconception, held by many people, that every line of iambic pentameter should have exactly five iambs which turns people off to iambic pentameter as a choice of meter. Iambic pentameter has never been that way, not even in its earliest days.

 

Tony


Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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rumisong
/ the GROOVES / in the / GRAY MAT / ter had / SUNK IN /

/ iamb / {pyrrhic / spondee} / {pyrrhic / spondee} /

 

A metrical foot consisting of two unstressed syllables is called a pyrrhic, and a metrical foot consisting of two stressed syllables is called a spondee. When a pyrrhic is followed by a spondee, the two feet taken together (pyrrhic+spondee) are considered to be a double iamb, and they are counted as two iambs. Therefore, in the line above, there is an iamb followed by two double iambs for a total of five "iambs."

:)) :icon_razz: :icon_eek: knee slapping LOLs :icon_eek::icon_razz: :))

 

holy sh** - you gotta be kiddn me!

 

:)) :icon_razz: :icon_eek: knee slapping LOLs :icon_eek::icon_razz: :))

 

I think it's the initial misconception, held by many people, that every line of iambic pentameter should have exactly five iambs which turns people off to iambic pentameter as a choice of meter. Iambic pentameter has never been that way, not even in its earliest days.

 

 

I hear you now!

and THANK YOU-- this is great-- and I will give it some study at some later time-- I now believe you

but, for now, I will consider myself as a strict adherent to the strictest definition of the strictest use of the strictest rules of the strictest...

 

I like it the way I was misinformed about it-- go figure, me- the iconoclast (self proclaimed and oft disputed)

 

this is very cool-

Thanks T!

 

time to rethink the whole thing from this new understanding

 

(still, sly grinning from ear to ear continues-- and underthebreath utterances of 'holy sh**' might still be heard from here on a mountain top in western mass)

Edited by rumisong

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tonyv

We can certainly talk more about it. Another thing I wanted to point out that's very important:

 

in iambic pentameter, there should never be three unstressed syllables in row.

 

That means that combinations like a trochee followed by an anapest, or a trochee followed by a double iamb, are not possible in iambic pentameter, because the result would be three unstressed syllables in a row. Notice this never happens in my poem above.

 

Tony


Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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rumisong
I really want to get this cleared up once and for all

:)) :icon_razz: :icon_eek: knee slapping LOL :icon_eek::icon_razz: :))

 

Thank you both again. Please ask if you have any more questions. (I'll try to answer correctly.)

 

he lifts the now smoking end of the barrel up near to his lips

and gives it a blow

a flash

a twirl

silver and ivory and smoke

in a blur

as he holsters his weapon

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Tinker

WOW Tony, In all of my reading I have never come across this explanation but admittedly most of my vast collection of books on writing are used as reference more than having read them front to cover. I pick and choose what I am going to read and don't always go further. So if the rudiments of iambic pattern are da DUM and pentameter means 5 feet, I put them together and get the classic strict line with 5 iambs. I never saw the part that said BUT...... :icon_eek:

 

I believe you because it is always a challenge for me when selecting classic poems as examples of various forms because they almost never use the strict iambic pattern and I am trying to deliver the best example of the form including meter I can find and I often read dozens of poems to pick just one with the closest frame to the criteria of the form including meter. Now I think I understand why. BUT....... :-8)

 

Where did you learn this? I have had poems criticized by others at different sites because I didn't have the "true" meter. The misconception is wide spread and I would say pretty universal. So what expert or authority can I refer to that endorses this view. Or are you the authority? You are a Master after all. :icon_cool:

 

~~Tink

 

PS... Have you considered putting together a cohesive article or essay explaining meter with this great big BUT.... ? I know right where it should be posted in Tools under the Glossary and I could provide a link from the alpha index. That would be so cool.... I was thinking of including something on meter there but of course it would have been the same old strict meter stuff and your post above would be far more valuable than anything I would put together. I was also planning to include an article about rhyme in the same place. I would welcome an article by you to be included with the other information there. :huh: Well you did mention somthing about getting inspired to write something...


~~ © ~~ Poems by Judi Van Gorder ~~

For permission to use this work you can write to Tinker1111@icloud.com

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tonyv
WOW Tony, In all of my reading I have never come across this explanation but admittedly most of my vast collection of books on writing are used as reference more than having read them front to cover. I pick and choose what I am going to read and don't always go further. So if the rudiments of iambic pattern are da DUM and pentameter means 5 feet, I put them together and get the classic strict line with 5 iambs. I never saw the part that said BUT...... :icon_eek:

 

I believe you because it is always a challenge for me when selecting classic poems as examples of various forms because they almost never use the strict iambic pattern and I am trying to deliver the best example of the form including meter I can find and I often read dozens of poems to pick just one with the closest frame to the criteria of the form including meter. Now I think I understand why. BUT....... :-8)

Wow, Tink, I can see how that would drive anyone crazy. I mean, specifically, trying to find a sonnet with fourteen lines containing five iambs each to use as an example -- I don't even know if I've ever read one! Perhaps the confusion comes from conflating form and meter. While sonnets are mostly written in iambic pentameter, the study of meter is a wholly different subject from the comparison and study of the various types of sonnets as forms.

 

So, check out the sonnet I just shared by TUCKERMAN in our Poem I Read Today forum. I'm excited by it! It's a lovely, world class sonnet. It, along with all the others I've shared in that forum (and the ones you've shared there and elsewhere, by Frost, for example), conforms with these standards we're discussing. No one would argue that Tuckerman's, Bowers', and Frost's sonnets are not in flawless iambic pentameter.

 

Where did you learn this? I have had poems criticized by others at different sites because I didn't have the "true" meter. The misconception is wide spread and I would say pretty universal. So what expert or authority can I refer to that endorses this view. Or are you the authority? You are a Master after all. :icon_cool:

 

~~Tink

 

PS... Have you considered putting together a cohesive article or essay explaining meter with this great big BUT.... ? I know right where it should be posted in Tools under the Glossary and I could provide a link from the alpha index. That would be so cool.... I was thinking of including something on meter there but of course it would have been the same old strict meter stuff and your post above would be far more valuable than anything I would put together. I was also planning to include an article about rhyme in the same place. I would welcome an article by you to be included with the other information there. :huh: Well you did mention somthing about getting inspired to write something...

I have to give the credit to Howard M over at pffa. I learned these basics of meter (specifically iambic pentameter) from the three topics to which I shared links in post #3 of THIS topic right here on our site. (I do believe Howard knows his stuff.) I also learned from the book I recommend in THIS topic on our site. The book also was recommended to me by Howard at pffa.

 

I would be pleased to put together a topic for your reference section. I would include the standards I learned from the pffa topics and also a few additional ones from the recommended book.

 

Tony


Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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Tinker

Thank you soooooooo much Tony. And with your permission I am adding this Terza Rima Sonnet of yours along side Frost's. I love it

 

And I am thrilled to get help on the meter stuff.

 

~~Tink


~~ © ~~ Poems by Judi Van Gorder ~~

For permission to use this work you can write to Tinker1111@icloud.com

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