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Deeply provoked by Tony - how we read the poetry?


Aleksandra
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Aleksandra

'tonyv wrote':

 

My cute co-administrator has advised me that the
Scansion
forum is just
so boring
,
icon_lol.gif
and that we need some fun.
icon_rolleyes.gif

 

icon_mad.gificon_evil.gificon_rolleyes.gif

Ah okay icon_biggrin.png I like that and yes I really think that. Just I hope nobody will understand me wrong. I do like that and I think it is so much worth and useful, and when we have such of great members who have so much knowledges for that field, it's perfect idea for the forum Workshop and that famous forum: Scansion icon_surprised.gif

Ah yes with so much respect for the people who works there, but for me it is boring icon_biggrin.png and I can't participate there because I am so weak on that field. So I can just admire to all of you who are able to be part from that forum.

 

So deeply provoked by Tonis icon_idea.pngicon_biggrin.png I want to have this topic and to talk what we think about that. For example, poetry for me is free field. I am in poetry not professional. So what I see when I read poetry? In every poem, I read from poetical site, I read imageries, expression, the poetical sound of the poem. To read with different eyes, makes me tired, and I know that is because I don't have enough knowledges but even sometimes I don't want to have icon_twisted.gif because with poetry I wanna enjoy and to read with my soul eyes and to try to see what the poet meant to say in that poem. Or to try to feel his / her feelings while writing that.

 

That is my way of reading the poem.

 

So I hope you understand me what I am talking about here.

Maybe I am talking bc of jealous icon_eek.gif because I am not as some of you, able to talk everywhere icon_razz.gif

 

Have fun my dear friends.

 

I hope we can have nice debate icon_wink.gif

 

Aleksandra

The poet is a liar who always speaks the truth - Jean Cocteau

History of Macedonia

 

 

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Ah, Alek, icon_biggrin.png don't fret about the scansion forum! It really is boring to everyone except high-brow academics, intellectuals, and poetry experts ... No need to concern yourself with it! icon_razz.gificon_razz.gif Stick to the playground, and nobody gets hurt! icon_lol.gif

 

Tony icon_wink.gif

Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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But seriously, Alek. According to the glossary in Mary Kinzie's book A Poet's Guide to Poetry (see details in the misc reference forum), scansion is "The visual graph of a poem's meter, taking into account the number of accents, the expected intervals between metrical accents, and the actual speech-stresses of the spoken words." Unlike some other languages, like French, for instance (and some Asian languages), English is an accentual language. One hears the stresses in the language when it is spoken. In French and the Asian languages, one can hear the syllables. That is why a Haiku (an Asian form) is typically set in some syllabic meter, like 5-7-5 syllables for the lines. In the Asian languages one can hear the syllables, but in English (no matter how hard one tries) he will not be able to hear the syllables.

 

I like to think of the scansion of a poem to be like the sheet music of a musical composition. Can a musician play without knowing how to read or write music? Certainly! Many do. I play guitar, but I can barely read music. I can if I set my mind to it and try, but it takes me a really long time. Of course, this analogy only applies to poems written in some form that has a regular meter and not to free form poetry. Free form poetry that is written in English also has accents, because it is the language itself, which is accentual, but there is no point in scanning free form poetry: it has no regular meter.

 

One of my books even goes so far as to state that scansion is only an after-the-fact analysis of a poem's meter, and that many poets may not even be conscious of meter when they write metrical verse. I can only speak from experience, and say that I am conscious of it when I write in a meter.

 

So yes, I hope we get some thoughts from others on this, too. Should make for an interesting discussion!

 

Tony icon_smile.gif

Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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Interesting Tony, when I write a metered poem, I write the lines first then go back and scan, and add, subract or invert the stresses to meet the criteria. I find I think primarily in iambic tetrameter. So I often find myself trying to come up with another metric foot when the criteria is iambic pentameter. I really struggle when the criteria is to write a trochaic line. There are forms that require it. The Sapphic stanza is one.

 

~~Tink

~~ © ~~ Poems by Judi Van Gorder ~~

For permission to use this work you can write to Tinker1111@icloud.com

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Well, Tinker, I would have to check your forms forum to see if the Sapphic stanza was an English form. It's not surprising that you find it difficult to maintain a trochaic meter; English is primarily an iambic language. Even if one were to pick up a newspaper and start to read, the passages almost always fall into an iambic swing.

 

Many poets find it easier to write in tetrameter. I suppose that might be because tetrameter yields more sing-songy results. Why is the pentameter line so common in English? Mary Oliver answers this in her book A Poetry Handbook (details in the misc reference forum): the pentameter line is most common in English poetry because its length matches the breath capacity of our lungs.

Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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JoelJosol

Scansion, Sandra, is important to enhance your English poem's rhythm. I primarily write in iambic because as mentioned it is that way in English. When you start writing a line without a sense of rhythm, you start to sound 'prose-like'. And it happens to me when I don't scan at all, as in my first drafts, too lazy to do it the first time. I just let it rip, and revise it later :-) And the poem does get ripped by critics :-)

"Words are not things, and yet they are not non-things either." - Ann Lauterbach

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Aleksandra

tonyv wrote:

 

Ah, Alek,
icon_biggrin.png
don't fret about the scansion forum!
It really is boring to everyone except high-brow academics, intellectuals, and poetry experts ... No need to concern yourself with it!
icon_razz.gificon_razz.gif
Stick to the playground, and nobody gets hurt!
icon_lol.gif

 

Tony
icon_wink.gif

 

Thank you my dear friend Tony icon_rolleyes.gificon_silent.pngicon_scratch.png

 

Aleksandra icon_jokercolor.png

The poet is a liar who always speaks the truth - Jean Cocteau

History of Macedonia

 

 

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Aleksandra

Tony and Tinker I really don't understand your " language " here " in your conversation icon_redface.gif but I admire you. Thank you, I see how you read poetry with all eyes of poetry skill.

 

And Joel my friend, I know it is important. But I never use that, so is that means that I don't have idea for how to write poem? Because I just write, all what I feel and I don't know how looks that, is there some rhythm or no. I never worked on poetry like you and others. I like it how you watch on this, and yes all is important and nobody do wrong. Just I am sharing how I read and how I write poetry.

 

Thank you for your shared thoughts my friends.

 

Aleksandra

P.S: I know I should read some more and who knows maybe I would love scansion too icon_rolleyes.gif

 

228954.gif

The poet is a liar who always speaks the truth - Jean Cocteau

History of Macedonia

 

 

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JoelJosol

Sandra, our raw experience and emotions are our material. Tools like scansion and meter are tools to enhance our poem.

"Words are not things, and yet they are not non-things either." - Ann Lauterbach

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I couldn't have said it better Joel.

 

aleks, You instinctively move us with your soul. Your generous soul shines through every poem you write. icon_smile.gif By studying and learning how to better use the tools of good English writing, how much more easily and clearly your soul will reach your reader. (note I said better use, because you already use them intinctively without knowing it)

 

The academic language of scansion (controlling the rhythm of the line) and syntax (placement of words within the line) will come more naturally to you the more you are exposed to it, the more you study it. Even the average English speaker doesn't know or use or understand these words. The average English speaker has no idea of the technical aspects of good writing. You say you don't understand what we are talking about when we mention scansion and syntax and yet you know more about them than the average English speaker already, just because you read it here and try to understand what we are talking about.

 

I have said it over and over here, I am absolutely in awe of those of you here who touch me with your words when English is not your first language. When the tools of good English writing such as syntax and scansion could not possibly come naturally . Even we English speakers struggle using these tools. If we weren't struggling, we wouldn't be discussing it. icon_eek.gif

 

~~Tink

~~ © ~~ Poems by Judi Van Gorder ~~

For permission to use this work you can write to Tinker1111@icloud.com

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aleksandra wrote:

 

And
Joel
my friend, I know it is important. But I never use that, so is that means that I don't have idea for how to write poem? Because I just write, all what I feel and I don't know how looks that, is there some rhythm or no. I never worked on poetry like you and others. I like it how you watch on this, and yes all is important and nobody do wrong. Just I am sharing how I read and how I write poetry.

Alek, listen ... All poetry has rhythm: the language itself is rhythmic. The only difference is that metrical poetry has regular rhythm. That in itself does not define good poetry; it is merely a style, a tool. Look at my poem "Every Day": it is reasonably competent metrically, but the poem itself is banal. Not only does it contain cliches, but it is a cliche of thought. Therefore what is it? It's merely a bad poem that amounted to some kind of metrical exercise.

 

I have told you over and over that your poetry, your language and original expressions are lovely. I even borrowed (ermmm ... stole icon_neutral.gif )one of them. Look at "Our Time": one of the expressions I used is alive eyes. That one was all you, from "Craven's Song." It's unlikely that I could have come up with something that original and lovely myself.

Here is a link to an index of my works on this site: tonyv's Member Archive topic

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Aleksandra

Yes Joel, sometimes does, but I think not always. I think that the poem can lose all poetical beauty if on that poem its worked too much with all these scansion. Because it's getting so much quality what is making the poem far from the simple reader. Not everybody knows what all of that means, and the normal reader looks for the simply beauty in the poem. Poetry is hard to understand anyway, so doesn't means that with all of that always the poem can be better ( for the reader of course, not for some academic or professional reviewers. )

 

Tinker dear, thank you so much for your lovely words. You are right when you say about my soul. Because I write just with my soul, and not coming back on some scansion:D. I agree with your view of things, but I think that I keep more to the natural feeling of the poetry, then the good syntax comes alone. It is happening to me, to write some poem, and after that when I read my own poem to not understand, and I say alone to myself : " ahh Alek how could you to write such of beautiful poem "

icon_biggrin.png yes I say that sometimes , and I am wondering how all of that works, the feeling , the sound, the tone, the flowing of the words. I can't recognize that I did that. Because I never pretend to write with some rule or anything. No scansion, not to think am I gonna make some sonnet, or tanka, or haiku... Never. And I have said before too, about haiku,I know the rules about that, but I never want to count all of that, makes me boring. I just write in the spirit of haiku. I love wise, and short poem, puzzle inside, not finished thoughts. All of it, but I do not like to make some good , right, proper haiku. Or any kind of some poetry form, and all of that because I love free verse, I don't want to make some border in my writing poetry. I want to be free and not to think about something else except in imageries expression, sound, tone. And to think how that gonna sound to the reader, I want warm and strong poems. So I don't care what kind of body have the poems. I love them free, naked, with soul, natural etc.

 

Ah I talked too much icon_biggrin.png

I hope I didn't lost the sense of the point in here.Because the point is that - how we read poetry icon_smile.gif

 

Thank you for reading and for understanding icon_smile.gif

 

Aleksandra

The poet is a liar who always speaks the truth - Jean Cocteau

History of Macedonia

 

 

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Aleksandra
aleksandra wrote:

 

And
Joel
my friend, I know it is important. But I never use that, so is that means that I don't have idea for how to write poem? Because I just write, all what I feel and I don't know how looks that, is there some rhythm or no. I never worked on poetry like you and others. I like it how you watch on this, and yes all is important and nobody do wrong. Just I am sharing how I read and how I write poetry.

Alek, listen ... All poetry has rhythm: the language itself is rhythmic. The only difference is that metrical poetry has regular rhythm. That in itself does not define good poetry; it is merely a style, a tool. Look at my poem "Every Day": it is reasonably competent metrically, but the poem itself is banal. Not only does it contain cliches, but it is a cliche of thought. Therefore what is it? It's merely a bad poem that amounted to some kind of metrical exercise.

 

I have told you over and over that your poetry, your language and original expressions are lovely. I even borrowed (ermmm ... stole icon_neutral.gif )one of them. Look at "Our Time": one of the expressions I used is alive eyes. That one was all you, from "Craven's Song." It's unlikely that I could have come up with something that original and lovely myself.

 

Thank you so much Tony. Now you make the ball quiet icon_biggrin.png ( okay macedonian expression icon_razz.gif ) Tony I like what you think about my poetry and I am happy because you think that I use some original expressions. And I didn't noticed about the " stolen " expression icon_biggrin.png But it's ok, you can keep it icon_wink.gif.

 

Tony I agree with you, when you talk about the poem " Every Day " I mean that is your thought, but I agree in the part, as I said before that not means that always all that metric, scansion etc, makes the poem good. The poem and poetry at all, needs something more always. Always can be better and better. But if there is just some rules and specific way, it's gonna lose the poetical beauty.

 

So thank you for responding. You are always so nice and you are understanding me always.

 

Thankk youu. icon_smile.gif

 

ALeksandra

The poet is a liar who always speaks the truth - Jean Cocteau

History of Macedonia

 

 

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aleksandra wrote:

 

And
Joel
my friend, I know it is important. But I never use that, so is that means that I don't have idea for how to write poem? Because I just write, all what I feel and I don't know how looks that, is there some rhythm or no. I never worked on poetry like you and others. I like it how you watch on this, and yes all is important and nobody do wrong. Just I am sharing how I read and how I write poetry.

Alek, listen ... All poetry has rhythm: the language itself is rhythmic. The only difference is that metrical poetry has regular rhythm. That in itself does not define good poetry; it is merely a style, a tool. Look at my poem "Every Day": it is reasonably competent metrically, but the poem itself is banal. Not only does it contain cliches, but it is a cliche of thought. Therefore what is it? It's merely a bad poem that amounted to some kind of metrical exercise.

 

I have told you over and over that your poetry, your language and original expressions are lovely. I even borrowed (ermmm ... stole icon_neutral.gif )one of them. Look at "Our Time": one of the expressions I used is alive eyes. That one was all you, from "Craven's Song." It's unlikely that I could have come up with something that original and lovely myself.

Aleks has put it succinctly, and we may be chasing the end of the rainbow here. While not fluent in all, due to lack of sufficient ly extensive vocabulary, I can read some dozen languages and enounce/pronounce them like a native, as the people who are would attest.

 

Nothing I want to brag about because my ear for speech sounds is an accident in having the suitably wired nervous system.

 

Of course, all languages have rhythm. While English may, by sheer accident, tend to sound iambic more often than not, pedantic analysis shows there are natural, correct passages with other metric-like sub-patterns than the classical,s identified/named by the Greeks for whom the rhythm is via variable syllable duration, not stress. Applying only the 3 formal (see dictionary) stress levels one can ascertain there is no guaranteed fixed regular repetition of any kind of m'metric, foot, even in many form poems.

 

I do not need to bore all here by giving examples supporting my arguments. There are many books that have already done that. And there are other speech aspects that appear in poems. Miller Williams collectively calls them vocalic echoes that contribute to rhythm but are not simply and easily demonstrated by graphic means.

 

Even if we could, there remain: the semantic contents, unusual artful distortions of syntax and the intangible effects on our emotion produced by given word combinations--tropes that are needed to make poetry what it is.

 

Scansion is a valuable tool for appreciating poems, but there is so much more. That complexity of rhythm can be more has been shown by Tinker in the 19 or so behers and the equally numerous Welsh patterns.

 

Let's not stop here. Exit waxwings, stage right.

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Larsen M. Callirhoe

interesting, i am going to scan a few of my poems and see what i come up with. i have to thank tony and tinker for explaining some stuff to me, i understand what metered poeetry is now. i still prefer free verse with simple rhymes occassionally if it suits the poem. waxwings i would love to hear (see) your comments and suggestions. i am looking to improve my knowledge of poetry.

 

victor aka larsen

Larsen M. Callirhoe

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