How is it for you?

[Aleksandra]

Collaboration!

 

 

Hi Aleksandra,

 

Don't want to hijack the wonderful discussion you're having, but I do like your idea of a collaboration work very much.

 

goldenlangur

 

Golden of course that is a good idea and thats why we have that forum here too. I have some collaborations with few of my friends. So I'm provoking now everyone who wants on a duel

 

let's see who gonna be the hero .

Victor was once the hero and we did a wonderful poem, I am going to check if we shared here too.

 

 

Aleksandra

[Aleksandra]

If it's not too intrusive, I wondered if you would expand a little more as to why the last lines of Yeats' Leda and the Swan do not work for you?

Not intrusive at all, Golden. I think, one of the things is my unfamiliarity with the expression "put on his knowledge," which appears in the penultimate line, but that could simply be from my own ignorance when it comes to mythology.

 

However, it's primarily the sonics, which I don't like in those lines, specifically the anapest(s) in the last line:

 

Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?

beFORE/the inDIFF/'rentBEAK/could LET/her DROP/

 

iamb/anapest/iamb/iamb/iamb/

 

I read "indifferent" as in-DIFF'-rent (3 syllables), but even if one were to read it as a four-syllable word (in-DIFF-e-rent), it would just change the third foot so that it is also an anapest. I think I would like the last line better if it were all iambs. For example:

 

Before the hungry beak could let her drop?

beFORE/the HUNG/ry BEAK/could LET/her DROP/

 

Okay, so hungry is stupid. But substitute any other more appropriate two-syllable word, and the line would be more to my liking.

 

In a nutshell: I stumble over the last line(s). The experts could merely disagree, or (more likely) I could have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

Tony

 

 

 

Tony here you did wonderful comment and shared beautiful things.

But I am wondering why this post looks to me as a scansion...?

[Aleksandra]

I don't mean to be intrusive, but would you say that the "inner demons" are in a fundamental way, (not always) linked to the larger social, political anomalies, aberrations and as an individual and a poet, you're affected deeply by this?:

 

"... I have always had enough drama to write about. The "inner demons" won't let you rest even if your life is running smooth on the outer. Rather I write my best poetry when I am disturbed internally...."

 

Of course gl. Though there are personal demons that haunt me (I can talk only about myself) yet we all are part of Nature and our surroundings effect us in universal, geographical, social, political and humanistic ways.

 

I wondered what poets and writers offered you succor at a time like this?

Well I normally go for writers I have not read before for my senses get sharpened at such a time and I feel more receptive to different ideas and perspectives. I generally dig into more local stuff. We have awesome literature in Urdu and Panjabi. Persian literature is brilliant (read some translations – I do understand some of the original but not much) and we have literature in other languages too but I can't read those languages. It really helps me understand the diversity of art. To be honest the Sufi literature really helps me and I feel inspired, almost electrified. There can be nothing that can match its beauty for me. I have on a number of times said that though I read any amount of literature there can be no truth and beauty like that of Meer, Ghalib, Bulay shah, Sultan Bahu's Kalam and Waris Shah's Heer and such great names and works.

 

 

This I understand. Often, I am not able to write, because I am used to writing about the same themes. Sometimes those themes become tired and even hackneyed . Therefore, I am now gearing up my mind for a new approach: treating the task of writing as a job. Hence, I must try some subject matter that's different from that which I am used. You told me a long time ago to try some different subject matter, and perhaps doing so is long overdue. That might be the answer to the "repetitive" slump you mention.

I was talking about myself while mentioning the repetition of images and themes . I think you write quite well. It's always a pleasure to read you. We have talked about taking writing as a job. And you know I dislike the idea. Perhaps the word job is hard for me to chew. As I have told you before I have always taken writing as a sacred thing. A peculiar way of revelation. I have discovered so much during the process of writing. But I think I get what you mean here. But I would prefer to put the same idea as a ritual that you have to perform daily like prayer. It is, indeed, constant practice and concentration that can make you master a skill.

 

I am reading Faust by Johan W. Von Goethe and in it Mephistopheles says to a hopeless Faust who wants to know everything that "art is long, and life is short" and so he must better go and hire a poet who can let his imagination go wild and would be able to provide before one can know it "every noble quality to your liking". I really enjoyed the debate between Mephistopheles and Faust. Mephistopheles goes on to say that he would like to meet such a gentleman (meaning a poet) that he would call him "Mr. Universe" and raise his hat to him.

 

I would like to share something from the same play that I think is related to this thread. Tinks, gl's tony's thoughts on self censoring rang Faust's discussion with the Wagner in my ears, who knocks at Faust's door at night for he has heard some voices. He moves on to say that those voices sounded like a tragedy in Greek. He then says that he would like to learn that art (namely tragedy) by choice. He thinks that one should know how to speak well. He furthers exclaims that people often say that the parson should learn to speak from the actor. On which Faust remarks that if parson is only to act then he should, commenting that nowadays it is normally what parsons are doing. Faust says something here that hit my heart:

 

"If you don't feel, your words won't inspire;

Unless deep within you speak sincere,

And with a charismatic fire

Compel the hearts of all you hear.

Oh, you can sit there glueing bits together

Or mixing cold leftovers in a stew

Blowing at the ashes, wondering whether

There's any fire left to warm your brew.

Yes – fools and children you'll impress —

If that is really what you want to do;

But you will never know another's heart, unless

You are prepared to give yours too."

 

This is something that one way or the other we all mentioned in our own ways. We cannot get the feeling of the words and think our works become a stew prepared by leftovers.

 

 

I'm reminded of an exchange I had with my father a couple of years ago. He asked me, "what do you call a person who paints glass even if he hasn't painted cathedral windows?

 

"A stained glass artist."

 

"Why don't you call yourself a writer even if you haven't published best sellers?"

 

I have always asked this question from my class fellows when we got into such a discussion: where can we get a license for being a poet or artist? It's not about being published or acclaimed. I think we have so many artists who are not even known to the world. For instance, an old man who lives in a small room in an unknown village, making one craved brass pot in one year, keeping alive the art his ancestry had lived for or some Sakina Bibi whose hands are dissolving into making earthenware behind her potter's wheel all her life.

 

Tony now I can see how this malaise bothers you. You are the most active member on this thread. Keep 'em coming tony!

 

Great goings on this thread everyone!

 

Dear Summayya. I must admit that your writing this post, gave me a big pleasure. I enjoyed so much reading this. Your explored wonderful points and views. I loved the part what you shared about Faust’s door at night and the voice. And also his saying in the verses what you shared. That really hits and makes the breath to stop.

 

Wonderful Summayya. Thank you so much for getting a good part of this wonderful and worth topic.

 

Aleksandra

[summayya]

Hello PMOers,

 

It is indeed great to be around such lovely people!

 

I took Tony’s idea of “job” in this discussion as taking poetry objectively rather than taking it as a profession – excuse my dimness if I was wrong. In one of your previous posts you mentioned that you generally wrote poetry out of some emotional stimuli and so I thought you were talking about subjectivity and objectivity. My apologies if I was off the mark. However, I think being objective does help, indeed. Giving it time daily and “writing for the sake of writing” can help one to get out of a block, as perhaps as one would write in a workshop exercise? Or as you once hinted to me, when I mentioned how I wanted to write metrical poetry, to treat it like a puzzle.

 

Tony mentioned limitations at one point and told us that writing well and entering the line of greats was the result of patience and continuous practice. I find it quite interesting and good. Every poet, writer, artist (perhaps every person – if I may dare say) has his/her limitations. It’s how we come to accept and understand them and work within those boundaries that make us great. I think every great person in the world was great because (s)he faced his/her certain demons and overcame them.

 

I love Jane Austen as a novelist. A big reason for this liking is that she knew her limitations so well and worked more and more on her positives until she was a master of it. And now we can see what great a writer she is. Her characterization is remarkable and did you notice that hardly any of her scenes are without a woman in them (very few if such is the case) because she had not encountered such scenes in the life around her. I remember reading a letter she had written to her... was it niece or nephew (sorry for this lapse of memory on my part for I read it some three four years ago)... Anyway in that letter she replies to him/her that even if his/her character in a novel that (s)he was writing was going to china he/she shouldn’t go with him for one should not describe those incidents/experiences in one’s writing that one has not encountered. I like how she understood her capabilities and remained in them mastering over the art within those specific limits.

[summayya]

And as for taking art and writing as a profession it is indeed sad to see that many a great artist have always been dejected for they could hardly ever find their due respect and appreciation (both in monetary and literary aspects alike). I was just now reading a book on the Persian works of Ghalib in which there are a number of occasions (sometimes taken from his famous letters and sometimes from his Persian prose writings) where he mourns the lack of good listeners and readers but there was something he had written in his book “Panj Ahang” that I wanted to share. Of course I will paraphrase it over here (I don’t think myself eligible to translate something of Ghalib in my low quality English).

 

He cries over his bad condition that he is living a darvesh’s life nowadays for the journey through the great art made him understand to polish the face of meaning through polishing the mirror.... so he put his ship into the ocean of poetry but it was not the ocean it was a mirage. And then pen became his knowledge but unfortunately either the times were fickle and didn’t have the proper eye or it didn’t come in his way. And the spirit and meaning (the treasure) of his poetry remained undiscovered.

 

(ok this is bad but )

 

This is just one of the numerous examples where Ghalib put forwards his dejectedness in not being appreciated. Good poets like John Ealia and Saghir Siddiqui (Urdu poets) died in horrible conditions for they could not find people, who would read, buy and appreciate their poetry. There can be nothing sadder!

 

 

Was it Frost or Pound who took writing as a profession? It is remarkable indeed.

[tonyv]

Hi Tony,

 

Many thanks for showing how the sonority in this poem comes across for you:

Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?

beFORE/the inDIFF/'rentBEAK/could LET/her DROP/

 

iamb/anapest/iamb/iamb/iamb/

 

I read "indifferent" as in-DIFF'-rent (3 syllables), but even if one were to read it as a four-syllable word (in-DIFF-e-rent), it would just change the third foot so that it is also an anapest. I think I would like the last line better if it were all iambs. For example:

 

Before the hungry beak could let her drop?

beFORE/the HUNG/ry BEAK/could LET/her DROP/

 

Tony

 

I must confess ignorance of anapest and iamb techniques and find it fascinating that in my inexperienced ear I read in-Diff-e-rent with an extended sound suggesting a "drooping" after his satiation and therefore "indifferent" seems appropriate.

 

"Indifferent" works fine, Golden, and you are reading it correctly -- we both are. According to the dictionary, it can be pronounced as a three-syllable word (in-dif-rent) or as a four-syllable word (in-dif-e-rent). If we pronounce indifferent my way, there is one anapest in the Yeats last line; if we pronounce it your way, there are two. Either way, the line is not metrically flawed, and I did not mean to imply that. But I do see your point about the dropping effect the four-syllable word indifferent imposes on the line, and, when taken in that sense, it does seem appropriate for the ending of the poem.

 

By using my own opinions of Leda and the Swan and Rim in my reply to Tinker, I was trying to give an example of how every line of every poem will not always be as good (with "good" being subjective) as other lines in the same or other poems. In the case of Yeats' poem, I just would have preferred all iambs in the last line; I think they would have made for a stronger ending. I don't like those lines in his poem as much as I like the others, and I don't like the ones I cited in my own as much as I like the others in my poem, albeit for different reasons.

 

Most would agree (myself included), that Leda and the Swan is a world-class poem. Obviously, the lines should not be changed. Similarly, my own attempt is what it is: for now and maybe forever, done. I was trying to provide some consolation for Tinker as she struggled with what you coined as self-censoring. My point: revision is good, so long as it is not so extreme that nothing is good enough. To some people, the last line of Leda and the Swan might be the epitome of perfection. I think that Yeats could have written the last line as good (or even better) in many different ways. In any case, had he self-censored, we would not have the poem to enjoy.

 

 

Tony here you did wonderful comment and shared beautiful things.

But I am wondering why this post looks to me as a scansion...?

That's because it is, Alek! Feel free to jump in the discussion ... I know how much you love scansion!

 

But I draw my conclusion on the mythical allusions in Yeats' poem ....Thus, the line you've referred to, I take as meaning that when Zeus raped/seduced Leda, did she imbibe his divine powers and intelligence and as an extended metaphor, Yeats explores the art/experience of creativity/writing/poetry - when a poet is possessed by the creative energy/Muse how much of it is conscious and how much beyond one's consciousness/control?

I do know the basic story, but I am afraid that I am not so learned when it comes to mythology.

 

I'm very grateful that you opened up the nuances of the various poetical techniques and if you find my response long winded and off the mark, I apologize. But your generosity in sharing your knowledge is much, much appreciated.

I, too, am grateful for your wonderful contributions to the forum. Thank you for starting this fantastic topic, for keeping it interesting, and for making me think.

 

Tony

[goldenlangur]

summayya and Tony,

 

Each time I log on there's something interesting and new being discussed.

 

Thank you both for sharing your knowledge, ideas and take-on of the the issues.

 

summayya - The poverty of the poets you mention, are almost archetypal of the lives of the greats of art and literature. Yet when the word has us in its grip we carry on, replicating their tales of struggles...

 

There's a delicious irony in the case of Austen - she who knew her limits broke the boundaries when she was able to write and publish in her own name whereas George Eliot who came after her, had to adopt a male pseudonym albeit as you observe, Austen wrote of her own social milieu, whereas George Eliot wanted to raise the larger issues - the existence of God, the age of the universe, the polemics of Science and Religion - did the scientific discoveries invalidate the Bible, the role of women in society.

 

You've brought out a fascinating aspect of a writer's predicament and identity, still relevant in our times.

 

 

Tony - Taking on a world renowned poet and critiquing his technique is no mean thing and the points you raise about self censoring and the adverse effects this has on one' work are well argued. More so your patience in explaining how anapest and iamb work/do not work in a particular work might well have both Aleksandra and me discussing scansion

 

 

Without both of you returning with more thought-provoking ideas, this thread would have lost its lustre

 

 

With grateful thanks,

 

goldenlangur

[Tinker]

This thread has taken on a life of its own. It is like reading a book on inspiration and self motivation. I have so much admiration for all of you here. You have all moved me with your writing and with your discussions, whether it be like this thread sharing your ideas and experiences, or reacting to a poem you each give a part of yourself when you write.

 

TonyV wrote:Well, I don't like licenses, because they are a regulatory scheme, courtesy of the government, but I understand your use of the word to mean "credentials." Some artists have formal training in what the various cultures have deemed to be good art.

 

Tony, I think the the license for poetry is an academic degree. All of the many books I own which are written about poetry are written by people who not only have a degree but they have all been professors. Most of today's "published" have degrees of some sort. When choosing a book, I generally will look at the "credentials" of the author unless the book has been recommended to me already. That may seem strange because I have no credentials myself and could care less about the credentials of poets I read on the internet, I only care if their work touches me in some way.

 

summayya wrote: We have awesome literature in Urdu and Panjabi. Persian literature is brilliant (read some translations – I do understand some of the original but not much) and we have literature in other languages too but I can’t read those languages. It really helps me understand the diversity of art. To be honest the Sufi literature really helps me and I feel inspired, almost electrified. There can be nothing that can match its beauty for me.

 

summayya, How I envy you and gl and aleks and all of the members here who can read and write in more than one language. The richness of words can only be compounded by the understanding and experiences of words in many languages, each language often brings its own special twist to a meaning and sonics of the word also lends an emotional touch. Connotation can be explored and experienced more thoroughly when comparing a word from one language to another. I don't know if I am making sense right now but words are the cornerstone of our art, how cool to explore a word with other sounds and colors and not be limited to one note, one hue.

 

~~Tink

[Larsen M. Callirhoe]

hi everyone,

 

this is a great discussion going on here. i unlike tony don't do poetry to think of it as a job. i do it as a hobby and past time. i had to give up my two previous past times when i moved into the nursing home. reading stars wars books and reading comic books. i have been writing poetry since june 2000. a few of my poems i love and the rest are fleeting moments of my mental state.

 

i have had writers block several times since then. the longest bout was about five months where i was in a nursing home and phyche ward for three months and 2 months prior i wan not in a mental state to write. once i got home from that ordeal i wrote several short stories and 4 awesome poems that got deleted accidently.

 

summayyah thanks for introducing me to your native poets.

 

goldenlangur do you think yeats was a sage. on a spiritual forum that i participate on in yahoo forums this lady named mina who i think is korean thinks yeats is the last prophet of the goddess and we both call her sophia though there are many names for her. she speaks highly of yeats and his insightful poetry.

 

tony its amazing how differently we look at poetry. i use it to stem my emotions and don't think of it as a job. i think of it as a past time to improve my grammer.

 

aleks your experience in poetry is remarkable considering your expertise in this subject and age. you speak like you are an old person yet you are young and eloquent.

 

well i have much to respond to, to tony and goldenlangur. i need to rest my hand from typing for a few hours as i gather my thoughts on how i should respond to both of you. you both have so many valid points about writing poetry but yet have bouts of writers block. i get anxiety after i post a poem and wonder if it will be my last poem and when will i write another one or many more.

 

victor

cheers all

[goldenlangur]

Hi Victor,

Thank you for sharing your experience of writer's block. We all have nothing but admiration for the way you've battled through the time you were in and out of hospital and with sheer will power and courage you returned to post your work and reviews of your fellow PMOers. Bless you, truly!

 

Re your very interesting question about Yeats, my immediate answer would be yes, he was a sage, although he is quite different from Blake who was a visionary.

 

Larsen M. Callirhoe wrote:

 

goldenlangur do you think yeats was a sage. on a spiritual forum that i participate on in yahoo forums this lady named mina who i think is korean thinks yeats is the last prophet of the goddess and we both call her sophia though there are many names for her. she speaks highly of yeats and his insightful poetry.

 

 

victor

cheers all

 

I'm battling with connection problems but I will return with a fuller response.

 

 

Take care,

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hi Victor,

 

Apologies for this delayed response to your very interesting question. I've returned past connection problems to post a few thoughts, which I hope answer you.

 

Yeats, unlike William Blake and TS Eliot did not write a coherent theory of his mystical beliefs but his writing and indeed his life were suffused with his search for the mysteries of life, including ancient Egyptian, Cabbalistic, , Christian, Tibetan Buddhist traditions and above all Celtic paganism. He derived his vision of what knowledge, life, relationships etc could be from these various strands and in his lifetime was closely involved in the exploration of the Occult mysteries through two main societies - The Theosophical and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Here he met similar minded people, among whom two are famous in their own right - George Russell and Aleister Crawley - and indeed participated in numerous discussions, seances etc in these societies.

 

An important influence both in his writing and his exploration of the occult was his wife George, who like Yeats was Irish and had visions - most Yeats commentators find this embarrassing and ignore her input - but Yeats' notions of the sacredness in nature, the power and relevance of Irish myths, legends and folk beliefs in framing a poetic vision were reinforced by his marriage to George.

 

 

Aleister Crawley later acquired notoriety for his supposed use of black magic, sex and power struggles within the Golden Dawn and was involved in a lengthy battle with Yeats - fascinating correspondence. But reaching beyond his own Church of England background for knowledge and exploration of the sacred links in nature and kindred spirits were Yeats' life long search and passion.

 

 

Richard Ellman's biography of Yeats is a great study.

 

Needless to say my summary of Yeats has much to be desired but i hope this is of some help.

 

 

goldenlangur