Is it worth it ?

[khashan]

The determination of meter and rhythm in many languages depends on the patterns of succession and alternation of two types of units.

 

These units in English are the syllables. English being a stress timed language has stressed and unstressed syllables as its two basic units.

 

The representation of these two syllable types has many forms, some of them are ( unstressed – stressed in order ) :

 

˘ /

u s

x /

da DUM

 

These symbols are often referred to as graphic symbols.

 

I thought of adding one more couple of symbols:

1 for unstressed, 2 for stressed

 

One might comment: so what! This is just another pair of graphic symbols.

This is true. But it is the only pair that can be described as being graphical as well as graphic.

 

What is the difference and how?

 

Graphic representation refers to visual marks that denote each type.

Graphical representation while having the same above definition, it can be represented on a graph whether linear ,web graph or otherwise.

 

The following link shows two shapes of scansion graphical representation which transforms the audio rhythm into visual rhythm.

 

Dactyl = DUM da da/ DUM da da/ DUM da da/ DUM da da/ DUM da da/ DUM da da

Anapest = da da DUM/ da da DUM/ da da DUM/ da da DUM/ da da DUM/ da da DUM

 

Replace DUM by 2, da by 1

 

Dactyl = 2 1 1 / 2 1 1/ 2 1 1 / 2 1 1/ 2 1 1 / 2 1 1

Anapest = 1 1 2 / 1 1 2 /1 1 2 / 1 1 2 /1 1 2 / 1 1 2

 

http://alarood.googlepages.com/anapest-dactyl.GIF

 

It has three shapes:

 

1- the upper is a snow crystal.

2- the middle is a linear representation of a hexameter dactylic and anapest, depending on left and right directions.

3- The lower is a web representation of a hexameter dactylic and anapest, depending on clockwise and counterclockwise directions.

 

As far as the general view is concerned, there is analogy between the snow flake and the visual graphical web representation of rhythm.

 

Does that have any implication?

Yes, it does. It shows the relation between two apparently various aspects linking a human and natural phenomena.

 

Does this method have any historical background? Does it have further implications and applications?

 

It has both.

 

As you see, this is a new feild which may appeal to some and may be disliked by others. it starts with and from prosody and extends to various artistic, cultural, inter-cultural and various other fields. Thus it widens the scope of prosody to new horizons beyond its traditional direct meter and poetry aspects.

 

 

Before elaborating on that, I request your evaluation. Is it interesting?

 

If you find it so, I will add further stuff on the subject.

 

If you think it is useless, please pardon me and forget it.

 

I wait for your evaluation and advice.

[Tinker]

Hi Khashan, I find this very interesting since I use these symbols a lot. Both da DUM and uS. Also sL =short and long for quatitative verse.

 

I think I understand you and in that regard the numerical assignment does make some sense. But I see some problem with your numerical code, mainly that of recognition. Someone can read da Dum and hear the rhythm. Or they can read uS and pretty much figure out what those initials represent, especially if they know they are reading about meter, but the numbers are up for interpretation or decoding and might not be so easily understood.

 

I am just one voice. . . . .

 

I will be interested in what others think.

 

~~Tink

[khashan]

Hi Tinker,

Thanks for your prompt comment.

 

But I see some problem with your numerical code, mainly that of recognition. Someone can read da Dum and hear the rhythm.

 

you are 100% right. But so are other symbols, ˘ / , u s , x /.

 

However, this approach is mainly meant for Academic research. It is not a replacement for da DUM when it comes to hearing the rhythm. Nor are other forms.

 

One of the fields that it tackles is comparative prosody since 1 and 2 can be both unstressed/stressed syllables in accentual prosody and long/short syllables in quantitative prosodies. Of course we would be taking of analogous rather than identical aspects when we compare accentual and quantitative prosodies. Like comparing the flow of electrical and water currents.

 

example :

 

English Anapest foot = 1 1 2

Arabic Khabab foot = 1 1 2

 

This analogy is deeply rooted in history, I quote from

 

http://www2.bc.edu/~richarad/lcb/fea...mpmetrics.html

 

English is a stress-timed language, French is syllable-timed. Poets in both languages made efforts to import the quantitative metres from classical Greek and Latin. In French these attempts failed in a very short time, and became mere historical curiosities. French poetry remained with the syllabic versification system, which is congenial to a syllable-timed language. English Renaissance poets thought they succeeded in the adaptation of the quantitative metre. But they were doing something that was very different from what they thought they were doing: working in a stress timed language, they based their metre on the more or less regular alternation of stressed and unstressed syllables, and not as they thought, on the regular alternation of longer and shorter syllables. They used the same names and graphic notation for the various metres, but the system was utterly different, and well- suited to the nature of a stress-timed language

[Tinker]

Hi Khashan, From my research of verse forms from around the world, it appears to me that in English, quantitative verse is simplified to counting syllables which warps the rhythm a bit but is the closest equivalent. It is true also for the Japanese onji and Arabic meter. I am mystified by the meters of the middle east. In English they are usually presented as syllabic but then there is a rhythm that also applies.

 

Like the Rajaz meter, couplets of 12 syllable lines, ssus ssus ssus

 

English line in Rajaz meter

 

Dawn holds its breat til, over trees, light fills the sky. from a poem by Robin Skelton.

 

How would your numerical system help the understanding of this?

 

~~ Tink

[khashan]

Hi Tink

 

Your deep insight makes me optimistic as to the outcome of this discussion.

 

How would your numerical system help the understanding of this?

 

Thanks for your generosity calling the two symbols ( 1 and 2) a system.

At this stage they are no more a system than any other pair of symbols.

All symbols describe the system of English Prosody.

 

Yet ,by calling them a system, you express a feeling that I have. I hope with further discussion we may be able together to develop a more efficient way that describes the system and many diversified interrelations and topics.

 

I am mystified by the meters of the middle east. In English they are usually presented as syllabic but then there is a rhythm that also applies.

 

If my understanding that you mean you can understand the middle eastern prosody but do not feel the rhythm of poetry is correct, then I would say this is true on both sides, because rhythm is something you feel. And feeling is linked to the nature of language and the audio system related to it.

 

Al the time, we have to remember that the accentual and quantitative prosodies may be analogous but they are different as the the criteria of timing is concerned. Hearing nature is a function of this timing nature.

 

This means that the rhythm of the same words or poetry is heard differently by two different people whose language timing is different.

This may be simplified by a vision analogy example.

 

The lion has a horizontally concentrated vision. The falcon has a telescopic vision. They see the movement of the same object differently. though each of them would think the other sees in the same way.

 

They are not to be blamed since humans may think the same way.

 

This remids us of this part of the afore quoted paragraph : "English Renaissance poets thought they succeeded in the adaptation of the quantitative metre. But they were doing something that was very different from what they thought they were doing"

 

Like the Rajaz meter, couplets of 12 syllable lines, ssus ssus ssus

English line in Rajaz meter

 

Dawn holds its breat til, over trees, light fills the sky. from a poem by Robin Skelton.

 

 

Like the Rajaz meter, couplets of 12 syllable lines, ssus ssus ssus

 

English line in Rajaz meter

 

Dawn holds its breat til, over trees, light fills the sky. from a poem by Robin Skelton.

 

How would your numerical system help the understanding of this?

 

All I can say at this stage – which I think you predict- is :

ssus ssus ssus = 2 2 1 2 ..2 2 1 2 ..2 2 1 2

 

In Arabic 12=3 watad and rajaz would be 2 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 3

Which can be written as 4 3 4 3 4 3

 

But this may be irrelevant at this stage at least.

 

many many thanks.

[rumisong]

enjoying the approach of this conversation... but I must say, the detailed understandings of the technical aspects may elude me for a bit more- but if I keep reading, I may keep learning

[khashan]

Hi rumisong, Welcome to the discussion.

 

All you need to know at this stage is 1= unaccented , 2= accented syllable

 

The second step would be to try to derive and test arithmetic forms and rules that accurately describe rhythm conforming to the feet structure. These forms should be capable to describe the rhythm in a way that one can learn it independently from any terms or idioms.

 

Is success possible ? that depends on the effort and the capability of combining the adherence to the meter content and the tolerance of form description.

 

Example

Iambic hexameter is a repetition of ( dad um ) or ( u s ) or ( 1 2 )

 

Let us assume that we will consider each 12=3 (21 is not 3 )

 

Then iambic woud be 1 2 /1 2/ 1 2 /1 2/ 1 2/1 2 = 3 3 3 3 3 3

 

 

 

What would be the effect of this assumption on other meters? Let us

check.

 

Anapese foot = u u s = 1 1 2 = 1 (12) = 1 3

 

Anapest hexameter

= u u s / u u s / u u s / u u s / u u s / u u s

= 1 1 2 / 1 1 2 / 1 1 2 / 1 1 2 / 1 1 2 / 1 1 2

= 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3

 

Dactylic hexameter

= 2 1 1 / 2 1 1 / 2 1 1 / 2 1 1 /2 1 1 / 2 1 1

=2 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 1

= 2+ anapest pentameter +1 1

 

Dactylic tetra meter

= 2 1 1 / 2 1 1 / 2 1 1 / 2 1 1

= 2 + ( 1 3 1 3 1 3 ) + 1 1

= 2 + (anapest trimeter) + 1 1

 

A modern example is the Beatles song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds":

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactyl_(poetry)

 

TANgerine TRee-ees and MARmalade SKIIii-es

= TAN + (gerine TRee-ees and MARmalade SKII) ii-es

 

Where

 

gerine TRee-ees and MARmalade SKI = 1 3 1 3 1 3 = anapest trimeter

 

Both feet can be represented on a circle circumference or two intersecting circles with these figures distributes on the circumference.

 

Then we should continue our test on other feet to check whether it is suitable or not.

 

This may seem an unnecessary luxury . Maybe its or it is not.

 

But the probability of ending with an arithmetic desceptive comprehensive form should encourage a trial and error approach. The importance of success is manifold. I can think of the following aspects

 

1-learning would be easier

 

2-computer programming will be feasible

 

3-the proof than Man's feeling of rhythm is programmed calls for contemplation.

 

4-transfering audio rhythm to visual rhythm by plotting these meters will unveil astonishing relations between many fields.

Though this link is in Arabic, but the drawings are self explanatory and they show relation between architecture and prosody. The figures on the shapes represent syllables or groups of syllables.

 

http://sites.google.com/site/aroodwasseem/

 

 

5-other fields that the abstraction of figures will call.

 

The fact that all these topics were successfully achieved in another language encourages the trial.

[tonyv]

Welcome, Khashan. I'm enjoying watching this fine topic develop. As I am a beginner when it comes to scansion and meter, I will need a little more time to read and absorb the information before I can even think about offering meaningful input. However, I will say that, with English being an accentual language and with our typical methods of scansion being at best incomplete ways of graphing a poem's rhythm, it would seem that there would always be room for additional systems which might also illustrate other characteristics of the language, like duration. Also, we have an international membership in which I take personal pleasure and pride, and the system you have developed and are sharing might also work for the other languages of our rich membership.

 

Our board (with special thanks to Tinker) already contains a host of useful reference information. Feel free to write as much as you would like and to make as comprehensive a topic as you desire on this subject. If you would like to make a reference topic for this in one of the forums (perhaps in scansion), don't hesitate to do so. Let me know if you need anything. I can make the topic a sticky if you would like.

 

Tony

[khashan]

Tony, Thank you. Your positive encouraging comment made me happy. I started very this subject very cautiously affected by my previous experience when I first presented this idea mainly in Arabic. It took me years to gain few people to take it seriously. The worst was the denunciation by some people who considered this a conspiracy against Arabic. This was caused by the undifferentiating between the theme or essence of an idea and the way you describe it.

 

As I am a beginner when it comes to scansion and meter

This is an asset that enables you to quickly acquire and efficiently participate formulating the final outcome of this method.

 

 

it would seem that there would always be room for additional systems which might also illustrate other characteristics of the language, like duration

 

duration effect in English is of limited importance. The same applies to stress in quantitative prosodies.

 

the system you have developed and are sharing might also work for the other languages of our rich membership

 

I prefer to use (the means or the tool ) instead of ( the system).

Almost ten years ago when I started on this, I thought I was the 1st to use it. Then I discovered this was used by Indians thousands of years ago but they used 1 and 2 only as symbols for short and long syllables, without utilizing their numerical nature . I think Iam the 1st who used these figures to describe the general mathematical prosodic rules that Alkhalil ( Arabic prosoy founder died – about 790 AC) must have discovered. This is the only logical explanation of the consistency of the very large number of detailed partial rules involved in describing Arabic prosody. Also, I think I am the first one to introduce the no 3 in Arabic prosody.

 

Also, we have an international membership in which I take personal pleasure and pride, and the system you have developed and are sharing might also work for the other languages of our rich membership

.

 

It ( the numerical tool) definitely does work for other languages. I intend to present certain examples in this regard.

 

Feel free to use this subject the way you like. I appreciate your introducing it any where.

 

I am sure we will have further discussion about this.

[khashan]

Meter Clock

 

http://alarood.googlepages.com/MeterClock.GIF

 

http://alarood.googlepages.com/Meter-clock.GIF

[Aleksandra]

rumisong wrote

:

 

enjoying the approach of this conversation... but I must say, the detailed understandings of the technical aspects may elude me for a bit more- but if I keep reading, I may keep learning

 

I agree with rumi I am the same. I enjoy reading you and admire you how you handle with this subject. I am so proud to know and to have people on our board who are willing to discuss about this subject too. We have our Tinker who never got tired by doing all what she have done here - Thank you Tinker for that.

So thank you khashan for this topic and welcome to our little but enjoyable kingdom.

And yes as Tony already said, feel free to ask anything you like so we are here to talk about that.

 

Aleksandra

[khashan]

Thanks Alexandra

 

I will continue writing what occurs to me in this subject asking your tolerance to what may seem unfamiliar or irrelevant. I hope one day somehow, some of it will be useful.

 

1 – Referring to the clock , There are two pure single foot circles each consists of one figure:

 

The inner ( A- pyrrhic=111111 ) is purely composed of the number 1

The outer ( D – spondee=222222 ) is purely composed of the number 2

 

The two intermediate circles ( B- iamb + trochee ) and ( C – anapest and dactyl ) are composed of a combination of the numbers 1 and 2, which may be looked upon as an interference of the two A and D circles according to a symmetrically consistant pattern as shown on the figure.

 

Does this suggest that historically speaking, these two simpler rhythms ( A and D ) existed first, then the other more sophisticated rhythms ( B and C ) followed later in the course of Man's development?

I say this having Arabic in my mind where the rhythms A and D are considered as one rhythm in which 11 and 2 are equivalent. This rhythm is considered primitive – though beautiful – and represents most of mothers' tunes lolling there babies and may children songs.

 

2- from

http://www.scribblingrivalry.com/rsvp_metr...m#Mixed%20metre

 

 

3 amphibrachs and an iamb

I SPRANG to / the STIRrup, / and JORis, / and HE:

I GALLoped, / Dirck GALLoped, / we GALLoped / all THREE;

 

1 iamb and 3 anapaests

I SPRANG / to the STIR / rup, and JOR / is, and HE:

I GALL / oped, Dirck GALL / oped, we GALL / oped all THREE;

 

 

It doesn’t matter how it is described, the effect is the same, and this further illustrates the point that scansion describes rather than prescribes what is written. It is impossible to imagine Browning sitting tapping out the beat to see what he can write so as to follow his metre. It is absolutely easy to see him with this wonderful galloping rhythm beating in his head and the words flowing easily in response. Then afterwards when he’s having his cup of tea, to review it and observe that he’d just written 3 amphibrachs and an iamb or possibly even 1 iamb and 3 anapaests!

 

All the forms above may be and often are mixed to create interesting and captivating verses

 

The rhythm of this captivating verse is predicted by the M-C ( Meter – Clock )

How ?

Let go the M-C .

Go to circle B arm 1 and rotate counterclockwise, you will counter arms

1-12-11-9-8-7-5-4-3-1-12 ( red odd arm numbers represent 1 , even numbers represent 2 )

 

= 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 2

= 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 (3 = 1 2 to be tackled later as a representative symbol )

 

Can we imitate this and test a similar probability?

 

No ?

Why ?

 

Rotating in the same circle , This is the only missing ( start-arm ) probability in the M-C which is not included in the six meters.

 

feet wise, this is a mixed meter. But according to the clock it is a missed meter.

[khashan]

Rhythm in nature and poetry

 

The lower is the famous Arabic al-kamil

 

http://alarood.googlepages.com/Kamil-flower.GIF