Composition

[Lake]

Revised

 

The veggies and

fruits are set

on the table

waiting

 

for a deft

hand to cut

and carve

into a formless

shape

 

Bear with me

you say

it is more of mind

than knife

in the making

of it

 

Original

 

The veggies and

fruits are set

on the table

waiting

 

for a deft

hand to cut

and carve

into a formless

form

 

Bear with me

you say

it is more of mind

than knife

in the making of

it

Edited August 5, 2010 by Lake

[dr_con]

Wow, Lake, Wow. Stunning instructive, Zen direct- cuts to the core...

 

Absolutely loved this!

 

 

DC&J

[RHommel]

it is more of mind

than knife

in the making of

it

 

What a wonderfully subtle expression of the creativity of the subject!

 

Thank you, Lake. I'm beginning to really get a feel for your style and I like it very much.

 

~Rachel

[waxwings]

I like the way the first two stanzas? set up--without warning the point of wisdom you name in the third.

 

Small linguistic qualms:

 

1) It is seldom (when the distiction is somehow essential) the plural of fruit is used in English;

 

2) You might be better off, poetically, though not analytically, to say "formless shape", the argument being that anything (if at all visible) has a shape, while "formless form" could makes one think, "why say 'form' if it has already been said there is no form." But I do like "formless" instead of the "amorphous", used too often in similar approaches.

[Lake]

Dr_Con,

 

I'm rumbled. Thank you for your appreciation.

 

Lake

[Lake]

Thank you Rachel, I like your stuff posted here too. When I get a bit more time, I'll certainly read more and comment more.

 

Lake

 

PS: Glad to see you.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Lake

[Lake]

Good point, waxwings.

 

I thought about the two points you made when I wrote the poem. So I'm glad you brought them up.

 

1, I was not aware of the fact that the plural form of "fruit" is seldom used in English. It is used just to be in coherence with "veggies"

 

2, I thought about "shape", too. Probably because of me being clever, thinking about the repetition of the word and the alliteration.

My fault.

 

I'll take your opinion into consideration.

 

Many thanks.

 

Lake

[tonyv]

This is one of those instances when a poem is better than a picture, Lake. I see a still life -- a fruit bowl on a table -- and all the things that can come from the psyche when taking in that still life, those things which are best expressed (perhaps can only be expressed) in a poem.

 

Tony

[waxwings]

Good point, waxwings.

 

I thought about the two points you made when I wrote the poem. So I'm glad you brought them up.

 

1, I was not aware of the fact that the plural form of "fruit" is seldom used in English. It is used just to be in coherence with "veggies"

 

2, I thought about "shape", too. Probably because of me being clever, thinking about the repetition of the word and the alliteration.

My fault.

 

I'll take your opinion into consideration.

 

Many thanks.

 

Lake

 

Apology for not being more precise. Of two acceptable plural forms, fruit seems preferable to me as it is the one used in the majority of cases. One does say, he brought me a lot (or a variety) fruit and veggies, not fruits and veggies. But, though in the vernacular, people are likely to ignore the distinction, but, fruits, is a term often reserved to specify persons of certain type considered unsavory, and that usage seems not right in poetry, unless that is exactly what one means.

 

As for form vs. shape, a circle is a round shape not form. It seems to me that using form indicates there is some standard (see 2nd sentence in previous paragraph) which is adhered to, e.g., is used whenerver there is some pre-printed text where you fill in the blanks to create a legal document and hints of formality not poetic emotion.

[RHommel]

Of two acceptable plural forms, fruit seems preferable to me as it is the one used in the majority of cases. One does say, he brought me a lot (or a variety) fruit and veggies, not fruits and veggies.

 

This piqued my interest, so I looked it up. I hope it's alright to jump in here?

 

There is a lot of discussion out there about this that could go either way. Personally, I use fruits to describe different types so I didn't think this wording odd at all, although I did note that the more common phrase is "fruits and veggies", instead of the other way around, and I liked that switch. I think that similarly to fish and fishes, the two words can often be used interchangeably. Here is a case where fruits would be preferable though: "There are 4 apples and 3 bananas on the table. There are seven pieces of fruit, comprised of two different fruits." Though I suppose you could also say two different types of fruit.

 

As for fruits being a derogatory descriptor of persons, that seems somewhat old-fashioned to me and therefore somewhat ineffective in its intent.

 

~Rachel

[waxwings]

Of two acceptable plural forms, fruit seems preferable to me as it is the one used in the majority of cases. One does say, he brought me a lot (or a variety) fruit and veggies, not fruits and veggies.

 

This piqued my interest, so I looked it up. I hope it's alright to jump in here?

 

There is a lot of discussion out there about this that could go either way. Personally, I use fruits to describe different types so I didn't think this wording odd at all, although I did note that the more common phrase is "fruits and veggies", instead of the other way around, and I liked that switch. I think that similarly to fish and fishes, the two words can often be used interchangeably. Here is a case where fruits would be preferable though: "There are 4 apples and 3 bananas on the table. There are seven pieces of fruit, comprised of two different fruits." Though I suppose you could also say two different types of fruit.

 

As for fruits being a derogatory descriptor of persons, that seems somewhat old-fashioned to me and therefore somewhat ineffective in its intent.

 

~Rachel

 

Righto. "fruits and veggies" is indeed a common phrase, an idiomatic one, and I would think it is, therefore, a cliche that could be used in a poem if spoken by a dramatis personae in it. But the poem at hand is not written as if the phrase was said by someone in the poem, thus my quibble. I do believe poets should come across as literate in their poems.

 

There is nothing old fashioned about a word that has been used in a derogatory fashion for ages and still is by vulgar people. We cannot wipe out past transgressions and biases for that would mean rewriting many a good book and poem.

Edited August 4, 2010 by waxwings

[badger11]

The beauty of this poem is that it prompts, provokes and resonates.

 

veggies and

fruits

 

A reference to types, people because of the plurals and the coupling? If just 'veg and fruit' perhaps there is not such a resonance? I think of a fruit bowl, but why this mix? A matter of precision? These are not crit. questions because I like the fact the poem brings these questions to the plate

 

for a deft

hand to cut

and carve

into a formless

form

 

Loved the strength, artistry and skill implied with 'deft'. The placement of deft/cut/carve works well. 'formless form' made me think of free verse, although my mind pictures art, sculpture, fruit and veg

 

Bear with me

you say

it is more of mind

than knife

in the making of

it

 

So true! The anonymity of 'it' otherwise

 

All readers will bring their own baggage to a reading, cultural and otherwise, but either way I thoroughly enjoyed this poem over the last few days.

 

badge

Edited August 4, 2010 by badger11

[Lake]

Rachel,

 

Thanks for your interest in the discussion of "fruits and veggies and veggies and fruits". I did mean in this poem, different types of fruit and, of course different kinds of vegetables. I've learned a lot from your discussion.

 

Thank you.

 

Lake

 

This piqued my interest, so I looked it up. I hope it's alright to jump in here?

 

There is a lot of discussion out there about this that could go either way. Personally, I use fruits to describe different types so I didn't think this wording odd at all, although I did note that the more common phrase is "fruits and veggies", instead of the other way around, and I liked that switch. I think that similarly to fish and fishes, the two words can often be used interchangeably. Here is a case where fruits would be preferable though: "There are 4 apples and 3 bananas on the table. There are seven pieces of fruit, comprised of two different fruits." Though I suppose you could also say two different types of fruit.

 

As for fruits being a derogatory descriptor of persons, that seems somewhat old-fashioned to me and therefore somewhat ineffective in its intent.

 

~Rachel

[Lake]

but, fruits, is a term often reserved to specify persons of certain type considered unsavory, and that usage seems not right in poetry, unless that is exactly what one means.

 

I just learned that vegetarians are refereed to as "veggies" and "fruits" can be gonads, :icon_eek: but obviously not in this context.

 

I'll take your suggestion of "shape".

 

Thanks for coming back.

 

Lake

[Lake]

Hi Badge,

 

Thank you for your generous compliment. Much appreciated. I'll move "of " to the last line before "it" to create some ambiguity. :)

 

Thanks much.

 

Lake

[goldenlangur]

Hi Lake,

 

This is surely one of your best poems in recent moons! What a lightness of touch. I love the sparseness of language which works very well to evoke a painting-like visual.

 

So much left unsaid. The enjambment in the last stanza in your revised version gives it a smoother flow and a greater sense of lingering thought.

 

 

If I may offer a few thoughts re your change of formless form to shape, I think that shape reads more literal, whereas your original formless form has the Zen spirit of a koan and also goes to the very heart of Zen philosophy - that paradox of the formless form. On balance, it seems to me, that your original formless form has the greater impact.

 

As ever, this is just my reading and I could be wrong.

 

Thank you for a great read.

[badger11]

My preference would be for the poetry and resonance of 'form'. It challenges more.

 

badge

[Lake]

So much left unsaid. The enjambment in the last stanza in your revised version gives it a smoother flow and a greater sense of lingering thought.

 

 

If I may offer a few thoughts re your change of formless form to shape, I think that shape reads more literal, whereas your original formless form has the Zen spirit of a koan and also goes to the very heart of Zen philosophy - that paradox of the formless form. On balance, it seems to me, that your original formless form has the greater impact.

 

Hi Golden,

 

How well you've read about this piece! Thank you for your interpretation of "formless form", which is what kept in my mind when I wrote it.

 

Many thank.

 

Lake

[Lake]

My preference would be for the poetry and resonance of 'form'. It challenges more.

 

Thanks again, badge for your confirmation.

 

Lake

[Aleksandra]

A beautiful poem, as always. It's a poem with spirit and veggies and fruits are offering a lot to the reader, with its metaphor and power.

 

This poem is right to my taste and I enjoyed a lot, Lake.

 

Aleksandra

[JoelJosol]

Aside from the visual, that drew a picture in my mind, I prefer the "fruits are set" for the sound of 's' in the line. If you use 'fruit are set', it is harsher sonic-wise because of the sound of 't'. Same reason for preferring 'formless/shape' versus 'formless/form'. The transition is smoother with one word ending in 's' and the next one beginning with it. But, the echo of 'FORMless/FORM'. Just a thought. What came to my mind first with form is like 3D while shape is 2D. I'm not sure if my association is accurate though.

 

Either way, it is a powerful poem. Something similar but an extended version of a haiku.

[rumisong]

Aside from the visual, that drew a picture in my mind, I prefer the "fruits are set" for the sound of 's' in the line. If you use 'fruit are set', it is harsher sonic-wise because of the sound of 't'. Same reason for preferring 'formless/shape' versus 'formless/form'. The transition is smoother with one word ending in 's' and the next one beginning with it. But, the echo of 'FORMless/FORM'. Just a thought. What came to my mind first with form is like 3D while shape is 2D. I'm not sure if my association is accurate though.

 

Either way, it is a powerful poem. Something similar but an extended version of a haiku.

 

shape= 2D

form= 3D

 

BYJoel, I think YOURE RIGHT!

 

yes, I find I liked the echo/repetition of Form/Formless myself, Lake, and just as Joel says, the smooth transition of the s in fruits and set are my preference here.

 

This is now my 6th or 7th reading of this work, and I dont know WHAT I was thinking the first time, but I was having trouble with the simplicity of it...

 

obviously, something ELSE in the poetryreader-me said to come back and back to it- and NOW- WOW

 

I really really dig this- (given the prefs just mentioned)

 

it has great depth actually, and what Joel just said too, its almost Haiku-like in its feeling

 

very cool!