forest red and forest black

[rosschandler]

forest red and forest black

 

brittle limbs and leaves that match

 

on the river bank I sit

 

shiver, quiver, as I slit

 

both my wrists and bite my lip

 

agonizing over bliss

 

covered up and covered in

 

someone else's blood and sin

 

screaming out in vain I shout

 

"Damn this night and damn my doubts!"

 

frigid now my bones do break

 

as the pain does penetrate

 

fiercely piercing my lost soul

 

which has wandered in this cold

 

wondered have I why I cry

 

contemplate or even try

 

nothing matters in this mess

 

as I try to catch my breath

 

frozen tears on icy cheeks

 

says much more than I can speak

 

in this howling wind I've wept

 

glass menageries of death

 

shattered on the forest floor

 

tattered, bruised I choose no more

 

angels watch me while I seize

 

shake and twitch and cease to breathe

 

for my will is killing me

 

an attempt to set me free

 

forest red and forest black

 

take me, break me for I lack

 

any dire will to be

 

rather would I die you see

 

what is but a heart but still

 

vacant, shaken in these hills

 

on these banks rank and rotten

 

when my love is forgotten

 

every syllable you read

 

seven to a sentence see

 

came as I awoke in sweat

 

choking on the these words of death

[tonyv]

Welcome, Ross. Interesting choice of meter in this Poe-like work that gleams with a contemporary edge. Is it a favorite? I have little experience with it, but it seems to be the same one used by Blake in "The Tyger." So let me go ahead and ask are you sure it's trochaic tetrameter and not iambic tetrameter? The reason I ask is that, for the most part, each line ends in an iamb. Would love to know more about it if you could be so kind as to share a bit of your experience with it ...

 

Tony

[abstrect-christ]

nice.

 

although.. this bugged me:

"wondered have I why I cry"

 

it loks like you meant to say one ofthe two things there unless it's just missing a comma.

[rosschandler]

Tyger Tyger is an example of trochaic tetrameter. For me i have been writing unwittingly this way for years. as i got older and studied prosody i found out just how influenced i have been. most nursery rhymes like "peter peter pumpkin eater" are this form. Longfellow's "Hiawatha Hiawatha" is best example.

 

The first syllables are always stressed in my poetry. in this poem the lines begin with a headless iamb causing each line to have a masculine ending on a stressed beat. this poemtry would be considered catalectic trochaic tetrameter. a feminine tetrameter should have 8 syllables and still have four stressed beats. 7 syllables would end on a masculine stressed syllable. This form was not very popular in the english language as championed by Shakespeare and Pope which flowed iambically in ten syllables five feet. Foreign languages such as Finnish tend to annunciate there speech in a more trochaic manner. But when used in english it is very lyrical and conducive to faery tale esque tales. the meter is forceful and marching, rolling off the toungue . BUM bum BUM bum BUM bum BUM. pure tetrameter through out a poem from first line to last is very rare. Many times for the sake of a certain word usage an anapeste or headless iamb may be employed. Ceasures and didactyls will slip in. But tetrameter is unmistakable and instantly recognized in the beating of the drums in Hiawatha Hiawatha...it would sound so different if one re read the meter beginning with an iamb. hi A wa THA sounds so different then HI a WA tha....more forceful as the latter.

Edited March 30, 2011 by rosschandler

[abstrect-christ]

could have just edited the first one.

[tonyv]

Thank you very much, Ross, for coming back with some details on this. It clears up some things. Yes, Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha" ("By the shores of Gitche Gumee/By the shining Big-Sea-Water") is the classic example of trochaic tetrameter in English, and it's my understanding he employed that as a choice in meter to mimic the Finnish epic poem "Kalevala." I am fluent in Estonian (also a Finno-Ugric language), and in addition to having similar languages, Finnish and Estonian cultures have other similarities. For example, our epic poem is called "Kalevipoeg" ("Son of Kalev") and is also written in trochaic tetrameter. Trochaic meter might be easier to achieve in Estonian (and probably Finnish, too), because every polysyllabic word in Estonian begins with a stressed syllable; if it doesn't, the word is probably a "borrowed" word from another language.

 

Tyger Tyger is an example of trochaic tetrameter ... The first syllables are always stressed in my poetry. in this poem the lines begin with a headless iamb causing each line to have a masculine ending on a stressed beat. this poemtry would be considered catalectic trochaic tetrameter. a feminine tetrameter should have 8 syllables and still have four stressed beats. 7 syllables would end on a masculine stressed syllable. This form was not very popular in the english language as championed by Shakespeare and Pope which flowed iambically in ten syllables five feet ... pure tetrameter through out a poem from first line to last is very rare. Many times for the sake of a certain word usage an anapeste or headless iamb may be employed. Ceasures and didactyls will slip in.

Well this offers a different perspective. In "The Tyger," Blake writes,

 

"Tiger, Tyger, burning bright

In the forests of the night,"

 

and the whole poem continues in this rhythm. But how do we scan it? I suppose this might be one way:

 

/ ^TY / ger TY / ger BUR / ning BRIGHT /

/ headless iamb / iamb / iamb /iamb /

 

When scanned like this, it appears to be iambic tetrameter. I suppose another way to scan it would be:

 

/ TYger / TYger / BURning / BRIGHT ^ /

/ trochee / trochee / trochee / tailless trochee /

 

So, are your poem and "The Tyger" written in iambic pentameter with each line beginning with a headless iamb, or they written in iambic tetrameter with each line ending in a tailless trochee? I suppose, as the old saying goes, it's "six of one, half dozen of another." The only thing I would posit is that, if we call it the latter, then your (and Blake's) lines definitely begin with trochees (and not headless iambs).

 

Tony

[fdelano]

Thank you very much, Ross, for coming back with some details on this. It clears up some things. Yes, Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha" ("By the shores of Gitche Gumee/By the shining Big-Sea-Water") is the classic example of trochaic tetrameter in English, and it's my understanding he employed that as a choice in meter to mimic the Finnish epic poem "Kalevala." I am fluent in Estonian (also a Finno-Ugric language), and in addition to having similar languages, Finnish and Estonian cultures have other similarities. For example, our epic poem is called "Kalevipoeg" ("Son of Kalev") and is also written in trochaic tetrameter. Trochaic meter might be easier to achieve in Estonian (and probably Finnish, too), because every polysyllabic word in Estonian begins with a stressed syllable; if it doesn't, the word is probably a "borrowed" word from another language.

 

Tyger Tyger is an example of trochaic tetrameter ... The first syllables are always stressed in my poetry. in this poem the lines begin with a headless iamb causing each line to have a masculine ending on a stressed beat. this poemtry would be considered catalectic trochaic tetrameter. a feminine tetrameter should have 8 syllables and still have four stressed beats. 7 syllables would end on a masculine stressed syllable. This form was not very popular in the english language as championed by Shakespeare and Pope which flowed iambically in ten syllables five feet ... pure tetrameter through out a poem from first line to last is very rare. Many times for the sake of a certain word usage an anapeste or headless iamb may be employed. Ceasures and didactyls will slip in.

Well this offers a different perspective. In "The Tyger," Blake writes,

 

"Tiger, Tyger, burning bright

In the forests of the night,"

 

and the whole poem continues in this rhythm. But how do we scan it? I suppose this might be one way:

 

/ ^TY / ger TY / ger BUR / ning BRIGHT /

/ headless iamb / iamb / iamb /iamb /

 

When scanned like this, it appears to be iambic tetrameter. I suppose another way to scan it would be:

 

/ TYger / TYger / BURning / BRIGHT ^ /

/ trochee / trochee / trochee / tailless trochee /

 

So, are your poem and "The Tyger" written in iambic pentameter with each line beginning with a headless iamb, or they written in iambic tetrameter with each line ending in a tailless trochee? I suppose, as the old saying goes, it's "six of one, half dozen of another." The only thing I would posit is that, if we call it the latter, then your (and Blake's) lines definitely begin with trochees (and not headless iambs).

 

Tony

 

A rose or a turd by any other name...

Sorry. Just having some fun and showing my ignorance.

 

fdh

[moonqueen]

Hi! I have always been told that if I cannot work with the technical, to simply state my opinion of the work, how it makes me feel, etc. In this case and discussion, that's all I can do, no education in any of this, so I won't even try to pass myself.

 

I like the way this reads, I like the way it rhymes and I don't like the way it makes me feel, which says you've done a fine job with the piece, doesn't it?

 

"screaming out in vain I shout

"Damn this night and damn my doubts!"

frigid now my bones do break

as the pain does penetrate

fiercely piercing my lost soul

which has wandered in this cold

wondered have I why I cry

contemplate or even try

nothing matters in this mess

as I try to catch my breath"

 

I especially love the above lines. I find it to be an excellent piece of work.

[rosschandler]

Thank you very much, Ross, for coming back with some details on this. It clears up some things. Yes, Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha" ("By the shores of Gitche Gumee/By the shining Big-Sea-Water") is the classic example of trochaic tetrameter in English, and it's my understanding he employed that as a choice in meter to mimic the Finnish epic poem "Kalevala." I am fluent in Estonian (also a Finno-Ugric language), and in addition to having similar languages, Finnish and Estonian cultures have other similarities. For example, our epic poem is called "Kalevipoeg" ("Son of Kalev") and is also written in trochaic tetrameter. Trochaic meter might be easier to achieve in Estonian (and probably Finnish, too), because every polysyllabic word in Estonian begins with a stressed syllable; if it doesn't, the word is probably a "borrowed" word from another language.

 

Tyger Tyger is an example of trochaic tetrameter ... The first syllables are always stressed in my poetry. in this poem the lines begin with a headless iamb causing each line to have a masculine ending on a stressed beat. this poemtry would be considered catalectic trochaic tetrameter. a feminine tetrameter should have 8 syllables and still have four stressed beats. 7 syllables would end on a masculine stressed syllable. This form was not very popular in the english language as championed by Shakespeare and Pope which flowed iambically in ten syllables five feet ... pure tetrameter through out a poem from first line to last is very rare. Many times for the sake of a certain word usage an anapeste or headless iamb may be employed. Ceasures and didactyls will slip in.

Well this offers a different perspective. In "The Tyger," Blake writes,

 

"Tiger, Tyger, burning bright

In the forests of the night,"

 

and the whole poem continues in this rhythm. But how do we scan it? I suppose this might be one way:

 

/ ^TY / ger TY / ger BUR / ning BRIGHT /

/ headless iamb / iamb / iamb /iamb /

 

When scanned like this, it appears to be iambic tetrameter. I suppose another way to scan it would be:

 

/ TYger / TYger / BURning / BRIGHT ^ /

/ trochee / trochee / trochee / tailless trochee /

 

So, are your poem and "The Tyger" written in iambic pentameter with each line beginning with a headless iamb, or they written in iambic tetrameter with each line ending in a tailless trochee? I suppose, as the old saying goes, it's "six of one, half dozen of another." The only thing I would posit is that, if we call it the latter, then your (and Blake's) lines definitely begin with trochees (and not headless iambs).

 

Tony

 

being estonian you know exactly what trochees mean to poetry. scansion can be tricky. trochaic tetrameter was early identified as the most devilish meter to accomplish because the english speaking poet had to make sure his english speaking audience read his line properly. the tendancy for english speakers to naturally speak iambically is very overwhelming.

Tyger Tyger is similar to my poem here in being seven syllabels catalectic trochaic tetrameter. ending on a stressed syllable or creating as u see as a tailess trochee is same as beginning with a headless iamb....like you said just matter how you see it. but this technique is used predominantly in rhyming trochaic tetrameter. so tyger tyger is this way. hiawatha is not.

here is excerpt from scansion expert timothy steele explaining this:

 

Poets who rhyme in trochaic verse often drop the final unaccented syllable from the line. This procedure is called “catalexis” (a word related to the Greek katalektikos, “incomplete”), and it spares the poet the necessity of using disyllabic rhymes, which tend to jingle. Stopping at the seventh position, that is, allows the poet to rhyme securely on a single metrically accented syllable. Elizabeth Barrett Browning’s “The Best,” a poem in catalectic trochaic tetrameter, illustrates this procedure. (I’ll use a caret to indicate the omitted final syllable of the measure.)

 

 

and this poem illustrates all the forms together:

Indeed, because the four-beat line is so emphatic, it is possible to mix all of the iambic-trochaic possibilities together and still maintain some sense of metrical coherence. As evidence of this, we can cite Keats’s “Give me Women, Wine, and Snuff,” a little six-line tour de force consisting of two catalectic trochaic tetrameters, two acatalectic trochaic tetrameters, and two iambic tetrameters:

 

at the end of the day one should write what naturally flows. and although i speak english my poetry rhymes and thus much of my poetry is seven syllables ending masculine with accented syllable. i do rhyme eight syllable trochaic tetrameter ending feminine.

[rosschandler]

Hi! I have always been told that if I cannot work with the technical, to simply state my opinion of the work, how it makes me feel, etc. In this case and discussion, that's all I can do, no education in any of this, so I won't even try to pass myself.

 

I like the way this reads, I like the way it rhymes and I don't like the way it makes me feel, which says you've done a fine job with the piece, doesn't it?

 

"screaming out in vain I shout

"Damn this night and damn my doubts!"

frigid now my bones do break

as the pain does penetrate

fiercely piercing my lost soul

which has wandered in this cold

wondered have I why I cry

contemplate or even try

nothing matters in this mess

as I try to catch my breath"

 

I especially love the above lines. I find it to be an excellent piece of work.

 

 

scansion or technicallity is not necessary at all to grasp. meters are not obtained through direct attempt as much as they are obtained indirectly by naturally speaking. tony just understands scansion as i do so it makes for interesting convo. a poems meter should not matter as much as its impact and descriptiveness or imagery. these affects on the reader are more important. and yes this is a sad poem.

[tonyv]

Thanks, Ross, for coming back to this.

 

being estonian you know exactly what trochees mean to poetry. scansion can be tricky. trochaic tetrameter was early identified as the most devilish meter to accomplish because the english speaking poet had to make sure his english speaking audience read his line properly. the tendancy for english speakers to naturally speak iambically is very overwhelming.

Very true. English is primarily iambic, and prose falls invariably into that pattern.

 

Tyger Tyger is similar to my poem here in being seven syllabels catalectic trochaic tetrameter. ending on a stressed syllable or creating as u see as a tailess trochee is same as beginning with a headless iamb....like you said just matter how you see it. but this technique is used predominantly in rhyming trochaic tetrameter. so tyger tyger is this way. hiawatha is not.

here is excerpt from scansion expert timothy steele explaining this:

 

Poets who rhyme in trochaic verse often drop the final unaccented syllable from the line. This procedure is called “catalexis” (a word related to the Greek katalektikos, “incomplete”), and it spares the poet the necessity of using disyllabic rhymes, which tend to jingle. Stopping at the seventh position, that is, allows the poet to rhyme securely on a single metrically accented syllable. Elizabeth Barrett Browning’s “The Best,” a poem in catalectic trochaic tetrameter, illustrates this procedure. (I’ll use a caret to indicate the omitted final syllable of the measure.)

 

 

and this poem illustrates all the forms together:

Indeed, because the four-beat line is so emphatic, it is possible to mix all of the iambic-trochaic possibilities together and still maintain some sense of metrical coherence. As evidence of this, we can cite Keats’s “Give me Women, Wine, and Snuff,” a little six-line tour de force consisting of two catalectic trochaic tetrameters, two acatalectic trochaic tetrameters, and two iambic tetrameters:

 

at the end of the day one should write what naturally flows. and although i speak english my poetry rhymes and thus much of my poetry is seven syllables ending masculine with accented syllable. i do rhyme eight syllable trochaic tetrameter ending feminine.

The rhyme part explains a lot -- thank you -- and you're right, it does depend on the flow, whether the cadences in the poem as a whole "feel" primarily iambic and trochaic. Even with "The Tyger," I suppose it would be difficult to ignore that "trochaic" feel. And I should have known this :icon_redface: , as I have Steele's "All the Fun's in How You Say a Thing", but I've focused mostly on the iambic. I was going to read up on trochaic meter there and post after your reply here, but you beat me to it. The other place I did check was Kinzie's "A Poet's Guide to Poetry," and here's what I found (from the Glossary entry on "Trochaic Meter" on pages 474-475):

 

"The mirror image of iambic meter, hence often tending to become indistiguishable from it ... Trochaic lines can be tightened by leaving off the final unstressed syllables ... or by alternating masculine with feminine endings."

 

Btw, it appears (as taken from one of Kinzie's examples in the referenced book and glossary entry), that "variable syntax (and accompanying caesuras)" are tools which poets (and she cites Burns' "Ae fond kiss, and then we sever" as an example) can use to make pure trochaic meters "convincing." This brings to mind your line from "forest red and forest black": wondered have I why I cry. I love that one.

 

Tony

[Rea]

forest red and forest black

 

brittle limbs and leaves that match

 

on the river bank I sit

 

shiver, quiver, as I slit

 

both my wrists and bite my lip

 

agonizing over bliss

 

covered up and covered in

 

someone else's blood and sin

 

screaming out in vain I shout

 

"Damn this night and damn my doubts!"

 

frigid now my bones do break

 

as the pain does penetrate

 

fiercely piercing my lost soul

 

which has wandered in this cold

 

wondered have I why I cry

 

contemplate or even try

 

nothing matters in this mess

 

as I try to catch my breath

 

frozen tears on icy cheeks

 

says much more than I can speak

 

in this howling wind I've wept

 

glass menageries of death

 

shattered on the forest floor

 

tattered, bruised I choose no more

 

angels watch me while I seize

 

shake and twitch and cease to breathe

 

for my will is killing me

 

an attempt to set me free

 

forest red and forest black

 

take me, break me for I lack

 

any dire will to be

 

rather would I die you see

 

what is but a heart but still

 

vacant, shaken in these hills

 

on these banks rank and rotten

 

when my love is forgotten

 

every syllable you read

 

seven to a sentence see

 

came as I awoke in sweat

 

choking on the these words of death

 

Hello Ross

I was quite taken by your poem, here and in M.P.F. It's got a melodious sound on reading, great rhythm and flow, imageries beautiful. The content, weeps with emotion, tremendous passion coming through, together with pain and hurt.

 

These lines are wrenchingly beautiful;

 

In this howling wind I wept

glass menageries of death

shattered on the forest floor

tattered, bruised, I choose no more

 

Almost every line evokes feelings, thank you for posting, if I am allowed I would like to post this to my favourites.

Best wishes

Rea

[fdelano]

forest red and forest black

 

brittle limbs and leaves that match

 

on the river bank I sit

 

shiver, quiver, as I slit

 

both my wrists and bite my lip

 

agonizing over bliss

 

covered up and covered in

 

someone else's blood and sin

 

screaming out in vain I shout

 

"Damn this night and damn my doubts!"

 

frigid now my bones do break

 

as the pain does penetrate

 

fiercely piercing my lost soul

 

which has wandered in this cold

 

wondered have I why I cry

 

contemplate or even try

 

nothing matters in this mess

 

as I try to catch my breath

 

frozen tears on icy cheeks

 

says much more than I can speak

 

in this howling wind I've wept

 

glass menageries of death

 

shattered on the forest floor

 

tattered, bruised I choose no more

 

angels watch me while I seize

 

shake and twitch and cease to breathe

 

for my will is killing me

 

an attempt to set me free

 

forest red and forest black

 

take me, break me for I lack

 

any dire will to be

 

rather would I die you see

 

what is but a heart but still

 

vacant, shaken in these hills

 

on these banks rank and rotten

 

when my love is forgotten

 

every syllable you read

 

seven to a sentence see

 

came as I awoke in sweat

 

choking on the these words of death

 

Ross, this is stunning to me since my lack of expertise in the technicalities leaves me with content that hits me with words like rocks thrown by the author. slit wrists and agonizing over bliss perfectly depicts a "cutter." wondered have I why I cry/contemplate or even try claims the reader forced to feel the same. The last two lines described the essence of the fearsome visitors of PTSD. Superb read. My thanks.

fdh

[rosschandler]

forest red and forest black

 

brittle limbs and leaves that match

 

on the river bank I sit

 

shiver, quiver, as I slit

 

both my wrists and bite my lip

 

agonizing over bliss

 

covered up and covered in

 

someone else's blood and sin

 

screaming out in vain I shout

 

"Damn this night and damn my doubts!"

 

frigid now my bones do break

 

as the pain does penetrate

 

fiercely piercing my lost soul

 

which has wandered in this cold

 

wondered have I why I cry

 

contemplate or even try

 

nothing matters in this mess

 

as I try to catch my breath

 

frozen tears on icy cheeks

 

says much more than I can speak

 

in this howling wind I've wept

 

glass menageries of death

 

shattered on the forest floor

 

tattered, bruised I choose no more

 

angels watch me while I seize

 

shake and twitch and cease to breathe

 

for my will is killing me

 

an attempt to set me free

 

forest red and forest black

 

take me, break me for I lack

 

any dire will to be

 

rather would I die you see

 

what is but a heart but still

 

vacant, shaken in these hills

 

on these banks rank and rotten

 

when my love is forgotten

 

every syllable you read

 

seven to a sentence see

 

came as I awoke in sweat

 

choking on the these words of death

 

Hello Ross

I was quite taken by your poem, here and in M.P.F. It's got a melodious sound on reading, great rhythm and flow, imageries beautiful. The content, weeps with emotion, tremendous passion coming through, together with pain and hurt.

 

These lines are wrenchingly beautiful;

 

In this howling wind I wept

glass menageries of death

shattered on the forest floor

tattered, bruised, I choose no more

 

Almost every line evokes feelings, thank you for posting, if I am allowed I would like to post this to my favourites.

Best wishes

Rea

 

 

why thank you so much. you can add this as a favourite....for sure.

[rosschandler]

forest red and forest black

 

brittle limbs and leaves that match

 

on the river bank I sit

 

shiver, quiver, as I slit

 

both my wrists and bite my lip

 

agonizing over bliss

 

covered up and covered in

 

someone else's blood and sin

 

screaming out in vain I shout

 

"Damn this night and damn my doubts!"

 

frigid now my bones do break

 

as the pain does penetrate

 

fiercely piercing my lost soul

 

which has wandered in this cold

 

wondered have I why I cry

 

contemplate or even try

 

nothing matters in this mess

 

as I try to catch my breath

 

frozen tears on icy cheeks

 

says much more than I can speak

 

in this howling wind I've wept

 

glass menageries of death

 

shattered on the forest floor

 

tattered, bruised I choose no more

 

angels watch me while I seize

 

shake and twitch and cease to breathe

 

for my will is killing me

 

an attempt to set me free

 

forest red and forest black

 

take me, break me for I lack

 

any dire will to be

 

rather would I die you see

 

what is but a heart but still

 

vacant, shaken in these hills

 

on these banks rank and rotten

 

when my love is forgotten

 

every syllable you read

 

seven to a sentence see

 

came as I awoke in sweat

 

choking on the these words of death

 

Ross, this is stunning to me since my lack of expertise in the technicalities leaves me with content that hits me with words like rocks thrown by the author. slit wrists and agonizing over bliss perfectly depicts a "cutter." wondered have I why I cry/contemplate or even try claims the reader forced to feel the same. The last two lines described the essence of the fearsome visitors of PTSD. Superb read. My thanks.

fdh

 

thank you. and ptsd is a bitch for sure. i actually did wake up and write this poem immediately after an unseemly dream.