TANKA CHALLENGE

[Aleksandra]

Here it is tanka challenge too .

Lake and Goldenlangur came with another great idea for opening of this new challenge, and many of us support and awaits of this.

I am not competent person to start this thread, like it should be . So I am just opening my friends, and Goldenlangur, you are more than welcomed to help us here to improve our efforts, because without suspect, you are the best writer of tanka, by mine opinion, but I am sure you have more fans who reads and respect your work.

 

So my friends go ahead .

 

Aleksandra

[goldenlangur]

Just a few for this challenge:

 

1.

keen and clear

Orion's belt and sword

another sleepless night

encrusted in frost

this uncrossable bridge

 

2.

waiting

for you

I sink

into the jasmine night

and unremembered dreams

 

3.

this morning

shell of a spider in your room

how long since it left

and all these days I thought

I was alone

 

4.

plaster clinic -

the nurse who knows so much

has never broken a leg

'Your fracture is neat,' he says

and chats about his new car

 

5.

again today

the world market dips -

morning radio

I switch it off with my crutch

and watch the leaves fall

 

 

Any suggestions for changes/improvement most welcome

 

goldenlangur

[Aleksandra]

waiting

for you

I sink

into the jasmine night

and unremembered dreams

 

Goldenlangur, this is really wonderful tanka. Wonderful expressed. " Jasmine night " sounds magic. I loved this one, the most.

 

And 4 tanka made me smile . I have experience with something like that too

 

Wonderful GL. Much enjoyed

 

Aleksandra

[goldenlangur]

Thank you Aleksandra you're always so complimentary about my tanka efforts.

 

I had doubts about the tanka you've quoted, so I'm delighted that you like it the most. As for No. 4. I'm not surprised that you have had a similar experience because many friends have told me that talking to a medical professional, can be quite a challenge and often what they advise is based on textual/theoretical knowledge and may bear little resemlance to the individula patient's needs. But I must not complain too much!

 

 

I hope you will try a tanka or two.

 

 

goldenlangur

[Lake]

Hi Golden,

 

I'm here to learn.

 

^{goldenlangur wrote:}

 

1.

keen and clear

Orion's belt and sword

another sleepless night

encrusted in frost

this uncrossable bridge

 

I like encrusted in frost, and this uncrossable bridge reminds me strongly of the story - a bridge is built by magpies over the milky way for the herd boy and weaving girl to meet once a year. This uncrossable bridge can also mean any obstacles.

 

2.

waiting

for you

I sink

into the jasmine night

and unremembered dreams

 

I sink, disappointed? hope lost? But the jasmine night is such a lovely image , this fragrance filled night together with unremembered dreams may have another interpretation that "I" is lost in the past memories?

 

3.

this morning

shell of a spider in your room

how long since it left

and all these days I thought

I was alone

 

It has a bleak and lonely feel.

 

4.

plaster clinic -

the nurse who knows so much

has never broken a leg

'Your fracture is neat,' he says

and chats about his new car

 

A lot of people can relate to this. It has a humorous or satiric tint.

 

5.

again today

the world market dips -

morning radio

I switch it off with my crutch

and watch the leaves fall

 

This is topical. Leaves fall parallels market dips. I like how you turned of the radio with your crutch which shows your mood and the market is just like crippled.

 

Hope I'm not too far off the mark.

 

Thanks for the examples.

 

Lake

[Lake]

Here is my two. Waiting for suggestions.

 

grass pushes

through the breeze

and the melting snow

listening to the birds

I miss your spring verse

 

 

a fresh wind flirts

this long-awaited sun

my legs race

along a gurgling creek

leaving winter behind

[goldenlangur]

Hi Lake,

 

 

You echo sincerely my thoughts:

 

I'm here to learn.

 

In a workshop like this reading your tanka and hopefully of other members and also receiving feedback on my own, I learn so much.

 

Your painstaking review of individual tanka is most rewarding. I appreciate deeply your sensitive and perceptive engagement with the images and the allusions therein. Your reference here is beautiful:

 

this uncrossable bridge

reminds me strongly of the story - a

bridge is built by magpies over the milky way for the herd boy and

weaving girl to meet once a year.

 

What a fabulous story and thank you for sharing it. Is it a Chinese folk tale? Very moving!

 

And yes, the sense of being obstructed and unable to move forward was intended.

 

 

I like how you see 'past memories' in No. 2 and certainly a strong sense of disappointment. I had doubts about this one so I'm very grateful that you were able to give it a layered reading.

 

 

You've also picked up so well the 'bleak' and 'lonely' feel of No.3. I wrote this for my father at this time of the annual rites for the dead.

 

In No. 4. you've definitely understood the touch of satiric humor - but I must not complain too much

 

Your interpretation here is most gratifying! How well you link the images and the resonance that each has for the other:

 

This is topical.

Leaves fall

parallels

market dips

. I like how you turned of the radio with your crutch which shows your mood and the market is just like crippled.

 

I cannot thank you enough for your review.

 

With much appreciation,

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hi Lake,

 

There's a classic feel to your tanka, evoking longing and reaching out for something intangible.

 

In the first tanka I love how you link the '

birds'

(songs, twitters) to

'your verse'

- suggesting how the words and indeed presence of the person touched your heart and mind and yet how out-of-reach this person is. Beautiful! You accomplish the 'turn' in the second half of this tanka so well.

 

A tiny point about the line:

through the breeze

. A rather pedantic question would be: How does the grass push through the breeze? But somehow it seems to trip up the flow of your tanka. If you don't mind and do please feel free to ignore this reworking, perhaps something like this:

 

grass pushes

through the melting snow

warm breeze

listening to the birds

I miss your spring verse

 

Or:

 

grass pushes

through the melting snow

spring breeze

listening to the birds

I miss your verse

 

But in this version that lovely 'spring verse' is lost. These are just ideas to play around and bin as you see fit.

 

 

Your second tanka is also wonderful

this long-awaited sun

is so laden with yearning and hoping and the sense of freedom and the spontaneous outburst of joy you capture in the second part of the tanka is superb!

 

Again, do feel free to ignore my suggestion. A teeny, weeny nit here:

flirts

does not tell the reader what is happening but your splendid second line

this long-awaited sun

seems to suggest a lifting of clouds and an outburst of the sun. So would you consider a little rejig here:

 

fresh winds lift clouds

over this long-awaited sun

I race

along a gurgling creek

leaving winter behind

 

 

As ever Lake, these are just ideas that occurred to me but you and other readers might find these make little sense. So please do feel free to reject mu suggestions. But I thoroughly enjoyed your tanka and love how you imbue your writing with a classic feel

 

 

goldenlangur

[Aleksandra]

Lake wonderful. I like your tankas. I see the thread is so useful for all of us.

So here is me too. Here is my first tanka

 

 

Frostbite -

a hole in the ice.

Mirror -

a reflection of you,

lost in memory.

[Aleksandra]

Really I need help. Maybe I am out of sense in my tankas

Here is one more.

 

My crumpled heart chokes

in the night,

without warmness

and naked body and face.

I need my soul back.

[Lake]

Thank you, Golden! Your opinions are what I need.

 

In my initial draft the first verse began like this

grass pushes

through the melting snow

as cool breeze blows

 

For some unknown reason, I thought grass pushes through the breeze is very original. After reading your comment, it does sound illogical. I like both of your rewrite and glad to see the word "and" is gone.

 

In the second verse, I like how you use "I race" to replace "my legs race" and "lift clouds" is another good option. As for "flirt", I meant the wind plays with the sun, but if it causes ambiguity or uncertainty, it should be replaced.

 

Your thoughts make quite clear sense and they are always appreciated.

 

Lake

[Lake]

Aleksandra,

 

Glad to read your tanka. I find in your tanka a strong emotion as that in your other poems. If mine has a classic feel ( hard to write something new and fresh) as Golden commented, I think yours is contemporary.

 

One thing I'm not quite sure about your first tanka is the connection between "frostbite" and "a hole in the ice." There might be something obvious that I've missed. If that's the case, please let me know.

 

Your second one, the more I read it, the more I feel it. Very powerful.

 

I'm not an expert in this form, so I'll leave the technicality part to Golden.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Lake

[Lake]

Here are two more.

 

silver lights

shed upon the darkness

the moonshine?

I roll up the blinds -

ah, the first snowfall!

 

 

helpless on the couch

my once vigorous father

points to the clivia

that unfurls its petals

in each morning dew

[Larsen M. Callirhoe]

i dance

in the rain

i skip in the puddles

my soul reflects in the sunlight

tomorrow is a new day

[Larsen M. Callirhoe]

loved everyone poems here, i can only hope i did good at my first tanka.

[goldenlangur]

How wonderful to read your tanka or two Aleksandra

 

Your first tanka has a lovely tender tone and your image of the

ice

mirroring the person is beautiful!

 

Like you I often translate from my language into English and find feedback about what works/does not work most helpful. So in this spirit, I hope you won't mind my pointing out a few minor points?

 

In the first line perhaps you might need to add another detail to

frostbite

to suggests a frost covered landscape ? Absolutely love

the hole in the ice

- its concrete, vivid and so clear! In tanka we don't use periods (.) at the end of lines because the tanka like the haiku, is read in a single breath. The idea of 'mirror' in the third line is linked very well to your last two lines and the first two lines. But it reads a little abrupt. But I think you're trying to get that caesura effect which tanka like the haiku, also follows. I admire how closely you observe and adopt these nuaced aspects of the form.

But we have 3 fragments (

frostbite

and

mirror

and

a hole in the ice

) giving that caesura effect in your tanka which disrupts the flow of your tanka. So perhaps here, we could rework a little so as not to lose the fabulous final two lines of your tanka.

 

Something like this?:

 

frost covered lake

a hole in the ice.

I see

a reflection of you

lost in memory

 

 

Or:

 

November frost

a hole in the ice

I see

your face

lost in memory

 

(In this version the 'reflection' is implied and the reader comes to it from your images.)

 

Or:

 

frost on the field

a hole in the ice

I see

you

lost in memory

 

(In this one the poet could be imagining the face of the person - moreopen to interpretation)

 

As ever, Aleksandra please do feel free to accept or reject my suggestions. Above all be true to what you really want to say and use the form - me thinks the tank is eminently suitable to your kind of themes.

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hello again Aleksandra,

 

Another beautiful write with a classic (intrinsic) sense and spirit of the tanka form. To bring out the full potential of your tanka I hope you won't mind my slight reworking of the lines?:

 

my crumpled heart chokes

devoid of any warmth

in the night,

with this naked body and face

how I long for my my soul

 

I've enjoyed reading your tanka and hope you won't be put off by my playing around. You're truly on the way of a great tanka journey

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hello Lake,

 

Your wonderful closeness of details in both haiku and the tanka grows and grows and I've really enjoyed your exchange here:

^{Lake wrote:}

 

In my initial draft the first verse began like this

grass pushes

through the melting snow

as cool breeze blows

 

For some unknown reason, I thought grass pushes through the breeze is very original. After reading your comment, it does sound illogical. I like both of your rewrite and glad to see the word "and" is gone.

 

In the second verse, I like how you use "I race" to replace "my legs race" and "lift clouds" is another good option. As for "flirt", I meant the wind plays with the sun, but if it causes ambiguity or uncertainty, it should be replaced.

 

Lake

 

Ambiquity in tanka is wonderful and so reading this I wonder if you would consider something like:

fresh winds flirts

with this long-awaited sun

 

Always be true to what you really want to say because a reader can only impute. Yours is the real voice. I hope you will trust it as your tanka and haiku journey grows in strength and beauty.

 

Can I just say that I'm sorry that you thought by 'classic' I implied something not contemporary or original. My apologies, Lake. By classic I mean intrinsic and true to the core of the tanka form. To quote the thesaurus : "of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind". I hope this reassures you that I have nothing but admirationfor your writing and always enjoy our exchanges.

 

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hello vic,

 

What a joyful tanka you've written! Love the image of the sun reflecting 'my soul'! And your final line gives much to hope

 

Would you be offended if I suggest a little playing around with the lines to bring the power of your song (tanka was originally a song)?:

 

in rain and puddles

I dance and sing

wordless joy!

sunlight mirrors my soul

and a new tomorrow

 

 

If this in any way alters your intention, do please feel free to ignore my suggestion, vic. But I'm delighted to see you try this form and give us such a beautiful song What a wonderful spirit you have vic!

 

 

 

Enjoyed this very, very much,

 

goldenlangur

[Larsen M. Callirhoe]

Hello vic,

 

What a joyful tanka you've written! Love the image of the sun reflecting 'my soul'! And your final line gives much to hope

 

Would you be offended if I suggest a little playing around with the lines to bring the power of your song (tanka was originally a song)?:

 

in rain and puddles

I dance and sing

wordless joy!

sunlight mirrors my soul

and a new tomorrow

 

 

If this in any way alters your intention, do please feel free to ignore my suggestion, vic. But I'm delighted to see you try this form and give us such a beautiful song What a wonderful spirit you have vic!

 

 

 

Enjoyed this very, very much,

 

goldenlangur

 

im not offended at all. i believe we are to see more beauty then what the writer intends to write in a person's writings. i loved what you wrote gl. i tried and will write another tomorrow ,orning.

 

cheers

vic

[Lake]

^{goldenlangur wrote:}

 

fresh winds flirt

with this long-awaited sun

 

I like this, Golden. Thanks.

 

I'd like to say I understand what you said about 'classic', in a good sense, and I'm glad to hear if my work is leaning towards the core of the tanka. It is just that I find a lot of images have been used and subjects have been written about, so it's hard to write something new and fresh. How to use the imagery in a new way? That's a challenge.

 

I would also like to say, I read your comments not only on my poems, but also on others. Your rework on Alek's and Larsen's sounds more clear and richer. I feel I'm taking a free on-line class now.

 

Many thanks,

 

Lake

[goldenlangur]

Hello Lake,

 

 

I like your idea of a free-on-line class and as we post more we learn more. Practice is what does it, me thinks too.

Thank you for getting back with your thoughts on 'classic' and the point about images:

Lake wrote:

 

I'd like to say I understand what you said about 'classic', in a good sense, and I'm glad to hear if my work is leaning towards the core of the tanka. It is just that I find a lot of images have been used and subjects have been written about, so it's hard to write something new and fresh. How to use the imagery in a new way? That's a challenge.

 

Lake

 

You've put your finger on the essence of the haiku and tanka - simple, everyday images which are used quite commonly but the challenge is bringing out that 'aha!' moment in haiku and that 'turn' in the tanka, to surprise and delight the reader or touch a deep chord in the reader.

 

You're incredibly generous about my reviews on this thread but I must say that what I suggest may not always work or represent what the poet intends. Also I too am learning how to write the tanka and exchanges with you and others are immensely helpful and thought-provoking and enrich my writing.

 

So thank you very much and hope to exchange many more thoughts here

 

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hi Lake,

 

The first tanka conveys well that moment of pleasant surprise when things fall into place - the unexplained glow behind the blinds turns out to be 'the first snowfall'!

 

Would a slight rearranging of lines work? tanka allows more lyrical details. Will these do?:

 

silver lights

glow in the darkness

is it moonshine?

I roll up the blinds -

ah, the first snowfall!

 

or

 

a silver glow

on this moonless night

what can it be?

I roll up the blinds

ah! the first snow!

(In this version the 'moonless night' brings out why the 'silver lights' caught the poet's attention; but it may not be what you intended).

 

Your second tanka is deeply moving in the way you contrast your father's now 'helpless' physical state (the 2nd line brings this out very well) and his mental faculty - he's still able to appreciate the beauty of the clivia flower. The final line is laden with exqusite delicacy of the frailty of human life:

 

helpless on the couch

my once vigorous father

points to the clivia

that unfurls its petals

in each morning dew

 

 

the tanka form allows such exploration of feelings and you've harnessed the form's requisite aspects very touchingly here.

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

leaving without words

you erased tomorrow

such finality!

even in dreams we meet

without words

 

 

goldenlangur

[Lake]

^{goldenlangur wrote:}

 

The first tanka conveys well that moment of pleasant surprise when things fall into place - the unexplained glow behind the blinds turns out to be 'the first snowfall'!

 

Would a slight rearranging of lines work? tanka allows more lyrical details. Will these do?:

 

silver lights

glow in the darkness

is it moonshine?

I roll up the blinds -

ah, the first snowfall!

 

or

 

a silver glow

on this moonless night

what can it be?

I roll up the blinds

ah! the first snow!

(In this version the 'moonless night' brings out why the 'silver lights' caught the poet's attention; but it may not be what you intended).

 

Golden, you interpreted this verse very well. It is exactly what meant. I like your second version more.

 

Glad you think the second one is moving. I'll keep "tanka allows more lyrical details; the tanka form allows such exploration of feelings" in mind when I write tanka. This is one difference between tanka and haiku I've just learned besides the number of lines. Thank you for this.

 

Best,

 

Lake

[Lake]

leaving without words

you erased tomorrow

such finality!

even in dreams we meet

without words

 

 

goldenlangur

 

 

This one conveys a strong feeling, very piercing - you erased tomorrow, is so fatal and brings the third line such finality!into place, which serves as a pivot that can be read as the end of the first part and the start of the second part, like:

 

leaving without words

you erased tomorrow

such finality!

 

such finality!

even in dreams we meet

without words

 

And the lines, we meet/without words and leaving without words echo each other, sound even more stabbing.

 

Great tanka.

 

Lake

[goldenlangur]

Hi Lake,

 

I'm really enjoying our discussion on this thread:

 

^{Lake wrote:}

 

I'll keep "

tanka allows more lyrical details; the tanka form allows such exploration of feelings

" in mind when I write tanka. This is one difference between tanka and haiku I've just learned besides the number of lines. Thank you for this.

 

Best,

 

Lake

 

The difference you've noted between the tanka and haiku theme is perhaps rooted in their different origins - the tanka began 1300 years ago as 'song' and was popular with the ladies of the Japanese court. So it has always carried lyrical descriptions and been imbued with feelings and emotions - sadnessof departing lovers, separation, longings. But in the different periods of Japanese history, the tanka did acquire other themes. For instance, Samurai warriors, often used this form to evoke the 'pity of war' - the long marches, suffering and separation, betrayal and the fatigue of battles during the endless civil war period. And later in the 19th century, the tanka took on other themes - a long story for now!

 

Basho (1644-1694) took the earlier form of haiku and developed it into the form we now know. He based the haiku on Taoist symbolism and the Zen practice and hence the emphasis on sparseness of details in the haiku.

 

I found that the different origins help one to orientate one's writing.

 

I'm so glad that this time I got your intent right - but it is a hit and miss case - the reader does not know what the poet knows, to to speak! And you second tanka spoke to the heart.

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Sorry Lake! I don't know quite how the lines i the last post configured the way they did. But I'm pressed for time now and will try later to edit it.

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hi Lake,

 

I like very much how you've used the pivot in your reading of this tanka. You're spot-on about this vital part of the tanka form. Using the pivot to test if the tanka reads as 2 whole poems is a good way to guage if a tanka works.

 

I still wonder if the final 2 lines in this tanka can be improved - the eternal internal critic/editor syndrome from which I suffer no end But I'm very grateful for the trouble you've taken to try and understand, what you so well describe as the

stabbing

effect in this piece.

 

 

Thank you very much.

 

 

goldenlangur

[Aleksandra]

^{Lake wrote:}

 

Aleksandra,

 

Glad to read your tanka. I find in your tanka a strong emotion as that in your other poems. If mine has a classic feel ( hard to write something new and fresh) as Golden commented, I think yours is contemporary.

 

One thing I'm not quite sure about your first tanka is the connection between "frostbite" and "a hole in the ice." There might be something obvious that I've missed. If that's the case, please let me know.

 

Your second one, the more I read it, the more I feel it. Very powerful.

 

I'm not an expert in this form, so I'll leave the technicality part to Golden.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Lake

 

Thank you Lake for your wonderful words. I am glad you liked my first tanka poems. In the first one the connection between "frostbite" and "a hole in the ice ", by my opinion is: the frostbite - like one imagery, and the a hole in the ice - as a detail for connection to the mirror imagery in the next line. As always, the big problem for me is making sense with my writing in English language. But I am trying.

 

The second one yes, is more sensitive?!

 

Thank you for your lovely comment

 

Aleksandra

[Aleksandra]

goldenlangur wrote:How wonderful to read your tanka or two Aleksandra

 

Your first tanka has a lovely tender tone and your image of the

ice

mirroring the person is beautiful!

 

Like you I often translate from my language into English and find feedback about what works/does not work most helpful. So in this spirit, I hope you won't mind my pointing out a few minor points?

 

In the first line perhaps you might need to add another detail to

frostbite

to suggests a frost covered landscape ? Absolutely love

the hole in the ice

- its concrete, vivid and so clear! In tanka we don't use periods (.) at the end of lines because the tanka like the haiku, is read in a single breath. The idea of 'mirror' in the third line is linked very well to your last two lines and the first two lines. But it reads a little abrupt. But I think you're trying to get that caesura effect which tanka like the haiku, also follows. I admire how closely you observe and adopt these nuaced aspects of the form.

But we have 3 fragments (

frostbite

and

mirror

and

a hole in the ice

) giving that caesura effect in your tanka which disrupts the flow of your tanka. So perhaps here, we could rework a little so as not to lose the fabulous final two lines of your tanka.

 

Something like this?:

 

frost covered lake

a hole in the ice.

I see

a reflection of you

lost in memory

 

 

Or:

 

November frost

a hole in the ice

I see

your face

lost in memory

 

(In this version the 'reflection' is implied and the reader comes to it from your images.)

 

Or:

 

frost on the field

a hole in the ice

I see

you

lost in memory

 

(In this one the poet could be imagining the face of the person - moreopen to interpretation)

 

As ever, Aleksandra please do feel free to accept or reject my suggestions. Above all be true to what you really want to say and use the form - me thinks the tank is eminently suitable to your kind of themes.

 

 

goldenlangur

 

Goldenlangur, how wonderful from you working on my first tries in the tanka world.

I agree with your suggestions, just I want to ask you, because I think that there is no rule for using or not using of periods. I have seen that in some books for haiku poetry. I am not sure, but also I saw in your suggestion for my first poem. But I agree that the haiku or tanka sounds better without periods, when we read in one single breath.

Let me ask you this now. First of all I liked the most your first idea for my first tanka:

 

frost covered lake

a hole in the ice.

I see

a reflection of you

lost in memory

 

But my question is it wrong if we use something lyrical here, or anyway in tanka poems. For example:

 

frost covered heart

a hole in the ice.

I see

a reflection of you

lost in memory

 

I think as you said in my haiku poems in the challenge, as I understood there, these kinds of poetry should be more clear and strong less lyrical? I am asking because of the reason that my taste is more .. But yes I want to write once a good haiku or tanka. So thats why your words are most appreciated GL.

 

Thank you so much.

 

Aleksandra

[Aleksandra]

goldenlangur wrote:Hello again Aleksandra,

 

Another beautiful write with a classic (intrinsic) sense and spirit of the tanka form. To bring out the full potential of your tanka I hope you won't mind my slight reworking of the lines?:

 

my crumpled heart chokes

devoid of any warmth

in the night,

with this naked body and face

how I long for my my soul

 

I've enjoyed reading your tanka and hope you won't be put off by my playing around. You're truly on the way of a great tanka journey

 

 

goldenlangur

 

Is it ok if we move the word how in L5?

 

my crumpled heart chokes

devoid of any warmth

in the night,

with this naked body and face

I long for my my soul

 

GL you are so nice. You make me smile with your saying that I am on the way of a great tanka journey . I hope so . But definitely, I should try more and more. Good tanka writer can't be good with only 2 poems, right? I know that so thats why I will work much more. I promise .

 

Thank you my friend. And sorry I took forever to come back here on this thread, I am somehow busy around, so I couldn't work on this earlier.

 

Thanks again. I respect your efforts with helping us here a lot.

 

Aleksandra

[goldenlangur]

Hello again,

 

Very interesting points you raise here:

 

I agree with your suggestions, just I want to ask you, because I think that there is no rule for using or not using of periods. I have seen that in some books for haiku poetry. I am not sure, but also I saw in your suggestion for my first poem. But I agree that the haiku or tanka sounds better without periods, when we read in one single breath.

 

From what little I know of the haiku and the tanka forms, the reason the period is not used is because these forms are supposed to be fragmentary in nature -emotions/thoughts arising from concrete images at a particular moment (haiku). In tanka the fragmentary aspect gives it that longing-beyond-words quality.

 

And yes, absolutely, tanka allows for more lyrical descriptions. Here, I could be wrong, I read the lyrical detail in your tanka to be the haunting second part:

 

I see

a reflection of you

lost in memory

 

I'm not sure how frost covered heart works with hole in the ice to suggest the reflection of you?

 

 

Wonderful to have these discussions and please do feel free to ignore my reading and suggestions. I feel you have the spirit of the tanka form and I hope you will experiment more and come to write in a way that is satisfactory for you.

 

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Here we are continuing our tanka discussions - very enriching.

 

Absolutely, yes, Aleksandra. After all as the poet, you alone can judge what you truly want to say/intend:

 

Is it ok if we move the word

how

in L5?

 

my crumpled heart chokes

devoid of any warmth

in the night,

with this naked body and face

I long for my my soul

 

 

You're always so kind about my efforts in the forum. I appreciate this very much but would like to say that my reading and suggestion are only my opinion. I offer it with the understanding that you are most welcome to ignore it.

 

I've enjoyed this thread and our discussions

 

 

Hope you will definitely try some more!

 

 

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

reading

the email again

I realize

you signed your full name

after all these years

 

 

the plum tree

we planted bears no fruit

after all these years

I still ask

why you left?

 

 

you left

question marks

not only

in this poetry book

but in dreams

 

 

in dreams

the moon is always waxing

never full

these old chest of drawers

without your clothes

 

Or?:

 

in dreams

the moon is always waxing

never full

these old chest of drawers

with just my clothes

 

 

 

 

 

goldenlangur

[Aleksandra]

Thank you Goldenlangur for your help around. I like when we have discussions like this one. Sharing thoughts is one of the worthier way of learning. I haven't ignore any reading, so I will less ignore yours. Your thoughts are always meaningful and helpful for me. Sometimes I know to give hard time, not because I don't want to hear suggestion, but because I want to learn why is something wrong and where I am doing wrong. I want to learn . I have little theoretical knowledge about this field, poetry generally. I am writing because I feel the poem in me, and I read with feelings too. So any help is appreciated.

 

Thank you my friend.

 

Aleksandra

[Aleksandra]

^{goldenlangur wrote:}

 

reading

the email again

I realize

you signed your full name

after all these years

 

 

the plum tree

we planted bears no fruit

after all these years

I still ask

why you left?

 

 

you left

question marks

not only

in this poetry book

but in dreams

 

 

in dreams

the moon is always waxing

never full

these old chest of drawers

without your clothes

 

Or?:

 

in dreams

the moon is always waxing

never full

these old chest of drawers

with just my clothes

 

goldenlangur

 

Hello Goldenlangur. Your tanka always looks good.

 

The first tanka is very modern. The realizing after observation is expressed and works well.

Your second tanka is amazing. Very deep and melancholic. The L1 there is very interesting written, and I think exactly the second lines in tanka asks more attention and they are the key of the tanka. Am I right? ( you see I am starting to learn ).

The third one is more philosophical. I love that simple note about question marks, gives a good tone, what makes the poem simple but very clever.

In the last one, I like it more firs version, where you use: without your clothes. I don't know why, but sounds to me less complicated, more clear, like the first lines are. I like this tanka also, because of the beautiful imageries what you use in here.

 

Much enjoyed with reading your tanka poems GL

 

Aleksandra

[goldenlangur]

Hello again,

 

 

Just to say that these discussions with you are very interesting and also thought-provoking:

^{Aleksandra wrote:}

 

Sometimes I know to give hard time, not because I don't want to hear suggestion, but because I want to learn why is something wrong and where I am doing wrong. I want to learn

. I have little theoretical knowledge about this field, poetry generally. I am writing because I feel the poem in me, and I read with feelings too. So any help is appreciated.

 

Aleksandra

 

I'm happy to engage in such exchanges. But I wish I knew how to make clear, coherent exegesis rather that bits and pieces about the tanka and haiku forms. For what it's worth I believe that suggestions are only just that, suggestions, the poet knows best what works for her/him.

 

Writing and reading with feeling is what enables one to cross boundaries, be it of form, images, thoughts etc. Cannot think of a more commendable way of relating to poetry

 

As for learning about poetry, that is something I too share as I began writing with prose and strayed into poetry and have much, much to learn.

 

 

So thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hello Aleksandra,

 

Thank you for reading and your interpretation is wonderfully observed and engaging.

 

Here you raise an important point about the tanka:

 

Your second tanka

... I think exactly the second lines in tanka asks more attention and they are the key of the tanka. Am I right? ( you see I am starting to learn

).

 

One of the most accomplished Japanese tanka wrtier, Yosano Akiko (1878-1942) said this about the tanka:

 

'...it is a poem with a middle only; its beginning lies in the poet's actual experience, and its end, if any, has to be sought in the reader's mind...'

 

Therefore, yes certainly you do have feel of the fundamental sense of the tanka. Although I would say, that perhaps the line after all these years is the pivot/key. But you do understand so well the essence of the tanka form.

 

If I may add Akiko's eloquent exposition also underlines what I was trying to say about the tanka being fragmentary in nature and therefore not using periods and also capital letters.

 

 

So glad that the simple note in the third tanka came across for you.

 

And yes, in the last tanka, the line without your clothes is more concise, which tanka requires.

 

 

Thank you once again for all these ideas and thoughts - much, much enjoyed.

 

 

goldenlangur

[Aleksandra]

^{goldenlangur wrote:}

 

Therefore, yes certainly you do have

feel

of the fundamental sense of the tanka. Although I would say, that perhaps the line

after all these years

is the pivot/key. But you do understand so well the essence of the tanka form.

 

 

Definitely I feel more than I understand the essence of the tanka form .

Gl I am very thankful for opening this world of Japanese forms in our board, you make that to be more popular and active here, with your sharing of your own wonderful work and efforts.

Also I found very interesting the name of Yosano Akiko. I google it, and I found her job very nice. Especially my attention went to her collection of tanka poems: " Midaregami " (Tangled Hair) . I read some of the tanka poems, and I see how wonderful are her tanka poems. I would like to read more from her job.

 

^{goldenlangur wrote:}

 

If I may add Akiko's eloquent exposition also underlines what I was trying to say about the tanka being fragmentary in nature and therefore not using periods and also capital letters.

 

About capital letters, in some of Akiko's tanka poems, I noticed that most of the first letters in a lines are big letters. I was reading here.

 

By the way my friend, I found something very interesting link, where explains some interesting points about the differences between tanka and haiku. So I am posting here to be seen, I hope it helps, and of course we can see if we agree with that:

 

TANKA VS. HAIKU

 

SIMILARITIES

 

TANKA ----------------------------------HAIKU

 

simplicity

 

succinct

 

reflects nature

 

traditionally no violence

 

traditionally no war images

 

COMPARISONS

 

TANKA--------------------------HAIKU

 

History

 

13 centuries-----------------------3 centuries

 

Aim

 

beauty-----------------------------is-ness

 

Length

 

31 onji / syllables -----------------17 onji/syllables

 

Traits

 

feminine ---------------------------masculine

 

lyrical-------------------------------fragmented

 

Social Background

 

courtly ----------------------------merchants and lower class

 

literary-----------------------------part of a game

 

Techniques

 

to savor beauty --------------------to open the heart

 

contemplation----------------------quick and direct

 

emotional ---------------------------aim to have no emotion

 

uses imagination--------------------senses with concrete images

 

written to assigned themes -------based on an experience

 

five parts/five images --------------three images - max.

 

exclusion of the ugly ---------------write beautifully of the common

 

written to be a chanted song ------spoken crisply

 

Zen

 

use of symbolic images -------------use of Zen subjects

 

Satire Forms

 

Kyoka /mad poem--satirical -------senryu

 

Language

 

traditional uses a limited ------------speaks of common things

 

accepted vocabulary of images -----with common language

 

that are agreed to be elegant --------to reveal uncommon ideas

 

Method

 

holds a mirror reflecting -------------just as it is

 

nature and humanity ------------------also

 

 

 

This is taken from this LINK, with many other things about tanka.

 

As much I am reading more about this poetry, I like these forms more and more. I enjoy a lot.

 

Thanks GL for your collaboration in this thread.

 

Aleksandra

[goldenlangur]

Hi Aleksandra,

 

 

Don't quite know what to say to your generous compliments about my tanka efforts.

 

So, so glad that you discovered Akiko. She took tanka to another level by exploring female sexuality and feelings with an openness that shocked and then thrilled her contemporaries. In more ways than one, she symbolizes how the form ( a poetic form) grows and changes with the times. And therefore yes, we can find numerous haiku and tanka writers who do not observe the upper case and punctuation rule while writing/translating in English. But an equal number who do.

 

For what it's worth, for me personally, the fragmentary aspect of the tanka is what distinguishes it from another form say, the Sedoka, the Sijo or even the haibun and therefore if this aspect is taken away, then we have a 5 line poem, but not necessarily a tanka. This is my take on of this form. But tanka is a kind of journey and each person comes to find out what works for her/him.

 

 

 

Thank you for the additional information on the two forms. So much to read, write and discover

 

 

 

goldenlangur

[Aleksandra]

Definitely tanka is a kind of journey GL.

I love reading tanka poems. Thats why I admire on your work, because you have much to show.

Glad that you found interesting the informations. I like discovering about these forms a lot.

 

Thank you for your kind comment

 

Aleksandra

[Larsen M. Callirhoe]

hi goldenlangur and aleks,

 

i enjoyed your conversation on tankas very much. i learned a lot. thanks for the stimulating conversation.

 

victor

[rumisong]

^{goldenlangur wrote:}

 

the reader does not know what the poet knows, to to speak!

 

this is a smile... its true, and its also "so to speak" semi-true!

I love the thought that arrived when I read this

 

gl, can I ask, are you from Bhutan? that area of the world? I just looked to see that the Golden Langur indeed comes from that area too!

 

if my question is inappropriate, Ill not feel the slightest bit insulted to be told so- its a funny thing with me- and Ive yet to get a full understanding of this within myself- but I just LOVE knowing "Where" in the world people are, and where they are from, when Im reading what theyve written.. "Place" is such a big thing for me- so thats what enboldens me to ask, but it doesnt mean people should feel obliged to answer

 

Im still reading through this thread - more to go ...

 

edit: ah, I see this is so- I could have used the search function first!

 

edit 2:

"...it is a poem with a middle only; its beginning lies in the poet's actual experience, and its end, if any, has to be sought in the reader's mind..."

 

ah, yes- see, this mirrors the very thing I saw when I read your "so to speak" line!

very fun!

[goldenlangur]

Hi vic,

 

How good to see you around and thank you for your encouraging comment. We're indeed having a great exchange of ideas here.

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hello again rumisong,

 

 

I like your thoughts here:

 

this is a smile... its true, and its also "so to speak" semi-true!

I love the thought that arrived when I read this

 

Would you say that the reader perceives things differently from the poet's intention? Or can one really come to see what the poet sees?

 

I can well appreciate why a

place

has a resonance for you as a reader

 

Please don't apologize about asking - I'm indeed from the tiny kingdom of Bhutan.

 

Your location brings to mind writers like Thoreau, Emerson and Wharton, who celebrated the beauty and colors of the area in their work.

 

I hope you will experiment with the tanka.

 

 

 

goldenlangur

[rumisong]

^{goldenlangur wrote:}

 

I like your thoughts here:

 

this is a smile... its true, and its also "so to speak" semi-true!

I love the thought that arrived when I read this

 

Would you say that the reader perceives things differently from the poet's intention? Or can one really come to see what the poet sees?

 

to me, it can either be as a clash of cymbals, or as delicate as the sunlight's first morning-meeting with dew, but it is in the "meeting", where is the Art...

 

the artist meets the seeing

the seeing meets the silence

the silence meets the pen

the pen meets the page

the page meets the reader

the reader meets the mind

the mind meets the seeing

the seeing meets the artist

 

who was the artist here?

was it the seer?

was it the reader?

was it the pen?

 

it was in the meeting- all meeting in one place! this is the art!- at the death of anyone called "artist", does the art come into being...

[rumisong]

this ones been sitting there for the last 40 minutes, asking if it wants to be reworked, or just thrown up here as is, as my first tanka...

 

Im impatient with its asking this already

 

• 
   
  
  • • speaking in low tones
      care lent to every word published
      the prisoner tells
      of these wrongs, perpetrated
      not to be misunderstood
      

[goldenlangur]

How eloquently put rumisong!

 

 

I suppose the art is then in that moment of meeting of minds/hearts and what this engenders is something that is beyond the artist and the reader/spectator/recipient.

 

 

Your eloquent ruminations here have given us much to mull over.

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

goldenlangur

[goldenlangur]

Hello rumisong,

 

 

For a first tanka this is quite a complex piece and I admire the panache with which you've handled the form.

 

I hope you won't be offended by the nit pick here - The first half of the tanka flows as one but the final line in the second half:

not to be misunderstood

does not quite link with what has gone before it. If one were to take the pivot line:

 

the prisoner tells

 

then the question would be what does the prisoner tell? And your L4 answers that but L5 is at a tangent to the pivot line. If one were to write:

 

the prisoner tells

of these wrongs perpetrated

and misunderstandings

 

then the second half of the tanka works with the pivot. But in tanka we need a final line that haunts, is open-ended and has sonority. Would you consider bringing out this concept of misunderstanding, carrying within it injustice and perhaps torture etc - hints at a great deal of emotional and psychological possibilites?

 

 

But do please feel free to ignore my suggestion as I could well have got your intention wrong.

 

 

But an inpressive first attempt and I hope you won't be put off at writing more tanka.

 

 

goldenlangur